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So when would they realize God? The second before they die? When you say they instinctively know God, does that not imply they should know him throughout their lives? You just said that God manifests himself through his creation. It would seem to indicate that those who live within nature would already have had a good understanding of God by the time any outside company was to puncture their bubble of seclusion.The fact that those people created images of what they thought were gods does not mean those people died not realizing who the true God is.
Well it's a pity call yourself an atheist not an agnostic or seeker ,because that is you will have to be in order to at least to be allowed to any new 'lightto enter .If can answerIt's a firm position to have, and I appreciate that you've cited your sources. But, in this case, I pose my question on you again: why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations; this would provide no opportunity for faith breaking doubt and people would be judged solely by what kind of person they were.
Additionally, do you believe that a person who has never heard of Christ, but has lived a peaceful and just life among his fellow men, unwittingly in alignment with biblical guidelines, will enter heaven? Before you answer, please consider John 14:6; Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
the best answer i can think of is, you cannot reject something you never heard of.Hello and good evening to you all. I am an atheist. Just thought I'd put that out there right away.
As a former christian and member of a predominantly christian family, I find myself frequently analyzing christian philosophy and asking questions of myself and others to understand various problems with the faith. More often than not, unfortunately, I am met with unsatisfying or even downright... um, unintelligent answers, shall we say. I am hoping that, by posing my question(s) to a wider audience via the internet, I might receive better, more satisfying results.
That said, here is my question:
One of the biggest pillars of the christian faith is the divine sacrifice of the savior, Jesus, so that people might be saved from the consequences of original sin and instead be delivered to the almighty creator in heaven. In order to receive redemption, one must only believe and accept Christ as his savior (John 3:16 and John 14:6).
The problem arises when one thinks about those who will never have the opportunity to hear about, much less accept, Jesus Christ. What will happen to those people? Will they be sent to hell for ignorance? What kind of loving, all powerful god would enforce such a horrific punishment for so unavoidable a crime? Or alternatively, would God have mercy and allow them into heaven, in which case all mention of Jesus should cease so that no one would even have the option to reject him?
Either way, it's a conundrum. One for which christian apologetics, in my view, has failed to provide a good answer. I would hope to get different answers here than that which has already been plastered over the internet so that I don't have to explain my reasoning as to why those explanations don't work; but I will if I must.
I look forward to a reasonable and enlightening discussion.
So then, would your assumption be that those who have never heard about Jesus, and therefore never had the chance to accept or reject him, will be judged based on their works alone? If so, then why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations; this would provide no opportunity for faith breaking doubt and people would be judged solely by what kind of person they were. If not, then what is your interpretation of the passage above?
not really , study his feasts he comands his people to do ..Ah, in that case, could you cite any scripture for why you feel this way?
Also, I'm curious as to what exactly you think this other plan God has might be. Care to elaborate?
Not quite like New Jersey, but close enoughSorry, but I thought you were talking about the lake of fire not being all of Hell, just a location within it. Like New Jersey.
Why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations?
Additionally, do you believe that a person who has never heard of Christ, but has lived a peaceful and just life among his fellow men, unwittingly in alignment with biblical guidelines, will enter heaven?
please consider John 14:6; Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
Well, considering more people will potentially be able to realize the glory of God in the end, I would argue that it would ultimately be for the glory of God, albeit via a round about path. But of course, this is a little bit hard to swallow. It would primarily be for the salvation of a greater number of people.I cannot see how removing all mention of Jesus from history and instead instilling good values into subsequent generations would be for the glory of God. It would actually be for the glory of man and not for the glory of God...
Furthermore, while we derive knowledge of God and God's will through supernatural revelation and the Incarnation of the Lord, knowledge of God is also revealed to us through knowledge of oneself and of God's creation, in general...
and the Lord Himself said,
Behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
(Luke 17:21)
Please note in all this that I am not suggesting that if one is seeking Truth, one can pick and choose whatever one wants. We are discussing specifically the case of someone who had never heard of Christ. Nothing in Scripture justifies apostasy.
They can not. That is why the Great White Throne Judgement is set (notice there will be TWO "books" set in front of the Judge). Those people in question will be judged according to what they did on the earth. Don't overlook this. This is serious. According to the standard set by Jesus (one can NOT argue at that time, there will be no cunning lawyer to represent you), who can stand straight in the Judgement?
In fact, this is one of the essential point in the Gospel. No one can be self-justified according to God's rule (because they are applying the visa to the Heaven).
It is only fair that when Christians will be rewarded according to what they did on the earth, non-Christian will also be punished according to what they did on the earth. A Christian may not be a "better" person than a non-Christian on the earth. But during the Judgement, they will be evaluated according to TWO entirely different systems (the TWO Books in Rev.20). That is why is it so important to be a Christian.
Sorry, but I thought you were talking about the lake of fire not being all of Hell, just a location within it. Like New Jersey.
@Dialogist
Well, considering more people will potentially be able to realize the glory of God in the end, I would argue that it would ultimately be for the glory of God, albeit via a round about path. But of course, this is a little bit hard to swallow. It would primarily be for the salvation of a greater number of people.
If you knew that killing yourself/giving up your own salvation could save untold numbers of children, would you do it? It's an obvious social paradox, but it is still something to consider.
I want to propose something to you, and bear with me here because it sounds convoluted, but I am wholeheartedly serious: I am an Atheist because I have found no compelling evidence to suggest a god exists but also because I have never felt something I can confidently call "the presence of God". In this way, I do not know God. I can say I know of God/Jesus but nothing else. Would this file me with the people who have never heard of Jesus? Does the simple act of hearing about a figure from the past named Jesus and is said to have been, quite unconvincingly, the son of God, make someone hell bound despite them doing their best to love and support their fellow human beings? Where is the line drawn?
Well, I guess this sort of answers the above question, but I'll leave it in case you or someone else has something to add.
@whois
I am going to ignore your appeal to emotion and instead direct you to a parallel conversation in this thread:
Missed the big "A" on my profile pic, huh? Nope, doesn't stand for A-hole ;PActually, I completely missed that you were an atheist. It doesn't really change anything I said.
You just pointed out another of the big reasons many find it nigh impossible to choose Christianity or, extending this concept out to the whole world, any religion, period.You are surrounded by over 20,000 Christian sects, each with different beliefs - some minor and perhaps unimportant, but others with major differences that lead to dramatically different understandings of God, man's nature, sin, and salvation.
You're starting to sound more akin to Universalism. But you are right, if I didn't prize truth as much as I do, I would most likely still be a Christian right now instead of an Atheist.Personally, I think the right thing is to seek truth. If the Scripture you quoted is true, then if you seek truth, you will find God. Seeking truth, you are probably on a straighter path than many Christians who have inherited somewhat fanciful beliefs.
So when would they realize God? The second before they die? When you say they instinctively know God, does that not imply they should know him throughout their lives? You just said that God manifests himself through his creation. It would seem to indicate that those who live within nature would already have had a good understanding of God by the time any outside company was to puncture their bubble of seclusion.
Indeed. You may be deceived into thinking gods are real.Don't forget that the human mind is easy to deceive.
For what will they be judged?This does not mean truth cannot be found, given enough time. It's impossible to know when or if they realized who the one true God is, but make no mistake, God has manifest himself through what has been made so that none of us will have an excuse come judgment.
Actually, I completely missed that you were an atheist. It doesn't really change anything I said.
One thing that I think I would agree with you is that people might actually be better off with no understanding of Christ and Christianity than a seriously flawed understanding.
To answer your question, I would say that there is a distinct difference between knowing God and knowing about God. Learning true things about God may help us to know the true God, but knowing false things about God probably will not. You are surrounded by over 20,000 Christian sects, each with different beliefs - some minor and perhaps unimportant, but others with major differences that lead to dramatically different understandings of God, man's nature, sin, and salvation (a word which means in Greek, by the way, "healing"). Either all of these sects are professing false things about God, or all but one are professing false things about God. Personally, I think the right thing is to seek truth. If the Scripture you quoted is true, then if you seek truth, you will find God. Seeking truth, you are probably on a straighter path than many Christians who have inherited somewhat fanciful beliefs.
Indeed. You may be deceived into thinking gods are real.
For what will they be judged?
How does one "work through Christ" if one does not believe?Judged based on works through Christ and judged based on works apart from Christ.
Works through Christ lead to perfect righteousness.
Works apart from Christ lead to destruction.
Note: a part of being a true Christian is to willingly destroy the passions of the flesh by submitting your all to Jesus, who took your sins upon Himself and makes you perfect before the Father so that you may have life to the fullest.
This is why true Christians never stop being true Christians. It's not me, but Christ who lives in me that gives me perseverance and strength.
Why do you think it is so easy to deceive the mind of somebody who is uneducated? It is because he has neither the knowledge nor experience that he needs in order to make a good, informed decision. For example, a child will believe most anything an adult tells him because he sees the adult is experienced and knowledgeable enough to care for him. As the child grows up however, he gains his own experiences and knowledge eventually to the point where he can make his own decisions without the counsel of a parent. In the case of the tribesmen, there were both young and old who were taken up in awe of the flying gods and their boxes of banquets. If God was so evident within nature, you would think that at least the elders would talk some sense into their tribe knowing what they did about God. But they didn't, because they had no inkling of knowledge or experience with the "one true god" despite the ubiquity of his manifestation.Don't forget that the human mind is easy to deceive.
Drawing on my preceding paragraph, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that people like the tribesmen had no realization of God at any point in their lives (unless he deemed it to come at the split second before they drew their last breaths) considering there was no resemblance in any of their rituals and customs to worship of a one true god.This does not mean truth cannot be found, given enough time. It's impossible to know when or if they realized who the one true God is, but make no mistake, God has manifest himself through what has been made so that none of us will have an excuse come judgment.
This notion of "true Christians never stop being true Christians" is baloney, a "no true Scotsman" fallacy, unless you consider people like me, despite my identifying myself as an atheist, a true Christian. I can assure you, for most of my life, I believed with all my heart that God was real and Jesus was the only way to be saved. I forfeited many things according to my faith and abstained from others because I knew the bible told me not to do those things. I was most definitely a "true" Christian.Note: a part of being a true Christian is to willingly destroy the passions of the flesh by submitting your all to Jesus, who took your sins upon Himself and makes you perfect before the Father so that you may have life to the fullest.
This is why true Christians never stop being true Christians. It's not me, but Christ who lives in me that gives me perseverance and strength.
haven't you ever honestly wondered why every culture on this planet has a god of sorts?But you are right, if I didn't prize truth as much as I do, I would most likely still be a Christian right now instead of an Atheist.
There is a global and persistent nature to refer to the Sun as rising and setting, as if it orbits the Earth, and not the other way around, despite us now knowing the reality of it. I do not see reality as being put to a vote.haven't you ever honestly wondered why every culture on this planet has a god of sorts?
even the uneducated tribals have their gods.
the romans had their gods.
all cultures of today have their gods.
you can not possibly say this is some sort of a fad.
fads do not become global and persist for centuries unless there is some sort of validity to it.
Our imagination.this validation comes from within each of us.
Sure, there are emergent properties that go beyond the sum of the molecules that we are made of, but how do you get from that to a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every objective measure to date indistinguishable from nothing?i'm positive you will say that you are more than just a sack of interacting chemicals.
I am not sure, but religious opinion is not going to cut it for me.so, what exactly is the truth here?
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