[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] A problem at the bottom of reason

paulm50 · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
Because God is righteous judgement. If you never accept Him, He can never know you.

What about killing people who didn't know about him?

God is claimed to have killed so many who had no clue of his existence, they had been led astray by other mythical stories. They were innocent, and still he decided to kill them.

No if god had wanted everyone to know him. He would of picked on the Egyptians or Mesopotamians, at the time of the bible's version of Genesis. He would have sent his son to Rome, not to some minor village in a Roman outpost.

He would of revealed himself as the real god and taught people his wishes, before flooding the entire world. He would of revealed himself to the ordinary Egyptians, instead of asking Moses to persuade Pharaoh, by killing 1,000s of those ordinary innocent Egyptians. He would of told the Canaanite to leave the land and live elsewhere, instead of helping the Israelites kill so many innocent people and animals.

Or maybe he is just the god of the Israelites, and a breakaway sect was adopted by the number one power in the Fourth Century and used to control the Kings of Europe for the next 1,200+ years. That ensured it's success.

A world wide god would of of saved a lot of strife and gone to the power bases direct. Imagine a world without Islam, Hinduism, etc.

paulm50 · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
Have you read the Bible?

The bible isn't proof, except that the bible exists. To prove god can influence things in the real world? You need to show proof.

Once people saw natural events as god's influence. Now we know better.

madera23 · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
Thanks, Madera23

This is an example of a direct insult, but it doesn't bother me too much, because I have the power of forgiveness.

If you understood what I said, you would not thank me.
Madera

dlamberth · Jul 28, 2015

Davian said:
This is one of the reasons I come here. It is rare that I encounter this religious stuff in the real world, and the first time I did - only a few years ago - I was completely taken aback, and unable to respond. It is in these forums I can explore their claims, to see if there is anything to them.

When stepping back and looking at the big picture, the over all religious offering here really isn't very large at all. So we don't much of a taste of what the real world offers in this forum.

.

ScottA · Jul 28, 2015

Freodin said:
Timelessness is a state without temporal relations. Without any temporal relations.

I was hoping you would elaborate, for instance: where are you referring to? How is this possible?

Freodin said:
I don't say that you consciously obfuscate the matter. But you are inconsistent in presenting this "knowlegde of the One greater than us both". You keep shifting in your references. You talk about things that have a temporal relation, while assuming that they don't have a temporal relation.

The problem is, and I would hope you could appreciate, that as a "witness" to these truths, I am limited to my humanity, to explain. Hence, all the analogies. Yes, I do mean to "reflect" on non-temporal matters, but am limited to temporal means.

Freodin said:
I don't say that you consciously obfuscate the matter. But you are inconsistent in presenting this "knowlegde of the One greater than us both". You keep shifting in your references. You talk about things that have a temporal relation, while assuming that they don't have a temporal relation.

I believe that you are genuine. I cannot say anything about whether you have been "entrusted with [...] great things". (Though I don't believe it.)
What I can say though: you are definitly doing it wrong.

I do believe you are genuine, but your reaction shows your frustration (understandably) and results in sarcasm...I guess. No offense meant or taken.

Freodin said:
Let me present you with an example... an analogy from a topic that does indeed deal with "truth": mathematics.

We make a definite statement... let's say "every whole number can be written as one distinct product of prime numbers".
We can claim that as "knowledge", as something revealed to us by a higher power, based on higher knowledge.
We might be faced by people who doubt our knowledge, who don't accept, who don't understand, who deny this. (And believe me: in this special case, I have met some of these people. )

And now our ways split.
I can take you by the hand, and lead you through the streets of Lon... err, numbers. And I can show you, step by step, why this statement must be true, why it cannot be false... I can prove it to you.
You keep on asserting "knowledge", urging me to accept your knowledge, to test your knowledge without telling me how to test it, unable to tell me where I got it wrong if my tests are negative. In your attempts to explain yourself, you keep mixing stuff - mixing whole numbers and rational numbers and real numbers and sums and products.

Your initial statement is, in this case, still correct. But you don't show any understanding of it. I can show that it is correct... you cannot.

But now we are faced with a statement that we don't know is correct. A statement that goes against anything that I consider "true". A statement that, as I see it, is full of holes and contradictions, empty claims and meaningless terms.

I ask you to guide me through it, to show me where I am wrong... to prove it to me. And you cannot.
Not a sign of truth nor falsehood per se. But a sign that your claim of knowledge is false.

Your test puts us both in the pool...and as yet, my test only comes in one of two forms: 1) with me presenting the matter hypothetically, which of course would require you to step away from your math and use your imagination...willingly, as if I were trying to share the view from my hotel window in Paris over the phone, if you had never been, but really wanted to see it, even if only in your minds eye. 2) I have also offered that you should really jump in the pool, take the plunge...but you repeatedly refuse. So, while your test is based in facts, I am not given the opportunity of an equal presentation...by you, and by the circumstances (by God).

Freodin said:
We both, in our finite, fallible, human state, are trying to get our positions across. We want to make each other understand what we are talking about.
I present a human message. I cannot claim authority or "higher knowledge". If I fail to communicate, I fail myself. Sometimes humans fail.

But you... you are a messenger for GOD! For the ultimate authority! For the source of knowledge and wisdom! You are HIS messenger, and HE entrusted you with a messege of enormous importance for us! Or so you think.

Don't you think that this ultimate wise and knowing God would find a better way to get his extremly important message understood by the people? Would he not at least find a way so that it is not constantly misunderstood?

I have my explanation for why he doesn't. What is yours?

I AM a representative of God, yes. But he has set limits on presentation: He literally cast humanity out from his presence - for good reason, he then designed a means of salvaging the relationship (salvation), and built in certain safeguards to keep the cause of his casting us out, from happening again...and then he planted clues EVERYWHERE...but the whole thing is not mathematical...that would be too easy for the wrong elements to weasel back in. So...in riddles, you CAN work your way through it, and the clues are free for the asking...but ask him, they cannot be shared. Only the news can be shared...but it's good. That's the plan, and as frustrating as it must seem, it is not only brilliant, it's generous to humanity in that we deserved only to be cast out, and it is without actual bloodshed (but that is only if you understand our true reality)...as he himself said, "It is good, very good."

ScottA · Jul 28, 2015

Davian said:
One's theological or philosophical positions have no effect on reality.

Within the simple sphere of human understanding that would appear true...but within the greater sphere that the human sphere exists, that is not true, and overrides the inner sphere of humanity. You, know, like when a fly on the dashboard of a car is not moving...but the car IS. Still too complicated?

bhsmte · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
No, you don't seem evil and wicked to me. You seem like a reasonable person who just happens to be on a Christian forum, learning about Christian beliefs. If you don't like what your learning, no one is forcing you to stay, all I ask is that you consider what I'm saying and make your own choices.

If you choose to attack me for my beliefs, well thats your choice I can't stop you. I just would never attack anyone for their beliefs, because it seems pointless, why would I attack anyone for what they believe when I know I can't force anyone to change what they believe?

You don't see the blanket judgment you place on people who disagree with your personal faith beliefs, do you?

I would recommend taking the log out of your own eye.

Chriliman · Jul 28, 2015

Davian said:
Then, in post #825, at whom were your comments directed?

Islamic extremists are examples of those who are completely depraved of the truth.

madera23 · Jul 28, 2015

paulm50 said:
Exactly, if he god had intended the whole world to come to him, he would of chosen a better way to do it. The pity is god's chosen, the Jews, never came back.

Some came back, I am one of them.
madera

bhsmte · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
Islamic extremists are examples of those who are completely depraved of the truth.

2/3 of the worlds population are not christians. Are they all depraved of the truth and being led by evil?

Davian · Jul 28, 2015

dlamberth said:
When stepping back and looking at the big picture, the over all religious offering here really isn't very large at all. So we don't much of a taste of what the real world offers in this forum.

.

Sure, but this is still far easier - and with fewer complications - than practicing on friends and family, and there are other sites to frequent whether the subject be other religions or extraterrestrial aliens, etc.

Davian · Jul 28, 2015

ScottA said:
..
I AM a representative of God, yes.
...

So, are you like, the Pope?

Davian · Jul 28, 2015

ScottA said:
Within the simple sphere of human understanding that would appear true...but within the greater sphere that the human sphere exists, that is not true, and overrides the inner sphere of humanity. You, know, like when a fly on the dashboard of a car is not moving...but the car IS. Still too complicated?

What's complicated about that? All you are making is an assertion.

Davian · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
Islamic extremists are examples of those who are completely depraved of the truth.

Yet they believe in God, and I don't. Have you not worked this through?

Chriliman · Jul 28, 2015

bhsmte said:
2/3 of the worlds population are not christians. Are they all depraved of the truth and being led by evil?

I believe the spirit of God is drawing His children to himself.

Davian · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
I believe the spirit of God is drawing His children to himself.

...and the rest can burn for eternity, for reasons beyond their control? Is this the "Good News" that I have seen mentioned?

Chriliman · Jul 28, 2015

Davian said:
Yet they believe in God, and I don't. Have you not worked this through?

They believe in the opposite of the the God I believe in. I'm sure you can figure out what entity I'm talking about. Research the Islamic god allah and you'll find some startling oppositions to the God of the holy bible. Basically complete opposites, interesting.

bhsmte · Jul 28, 2015

Chriliman said:
I believe the spirit of God is drawing His children to himself.

Doesn't answer the question I asked, which was directed at your previous comments in this thread, specifically in post #825.

Want to take another crack at my question?

Chriliman · Jul 28, 2015

Davian said:
...and the rest can burn for eternity, for reasons beyond their control? Is this the "Good News" that I have seen mentioned?

Who said you can't be one of his children? Or anyone with this same question? I think the good news is that you can be one of his children by believing in Jesus and accepting him as your savior. Please stop trying to distort my beliefs.

madera23 · Jul 28, 2015

paulm50 said:
What about killing people who didn't know about him?

God is claimed to have killed so many who had no clue of his existence, they had been led astray by other mythical stories. They were innocent, and still he decided to kill them.

No if god had wanted everyone to know him. He would of picked on the Egyptians or Mesopotamians, at the time of the bible's version of Genesis. He would have sent his son to Rome, not to some minor village in a Roman outpost.

He would of revealed himself as the real god and taught people his wishes, before flooding the entire world. He would of revealed himself to the ordinary Egyptians, instead of asking Moses to persuade Pharaoh, by killing 1,000s of those ordinary innocent Egyptians. He would of told the Canaanite to leave the land and live elsewhere, instead of helping the Israelites kill so many innocent people and animals.

Or maybe he is just the god of the Israelites, and a breakaway sect was adopted by the number one power in the Fourth Century and used to control the Kings of Europe for the next 1,200+ years. That ensured it's success.

A world wide god would of of saved a lot of strife and gone to the power bases direct. Imagine a world without Islam, Hinduism, etc.

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