Perfection, when will we gain it?

reddogs · Aug 13, 2007

Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. So how is this 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

moicherie · Aug 13, 2007

Define perfection. That seems to be the problem. I understand perfection as the KJV uses the word as completeness, just as we say a mother gave birth to a perfect baby. That does not mean the baby is or will be free from sin it means the baby is a complete human being, he or she fits the 'human manual' so to speak.

reddogs · Aug 13, 2007

moicherie said:
Define perfection. That seems to be the problem. I understand perfection as the KJV uses the word as completeness, just as we say a mother gave birth to a perfect baby. That does not mean the baby is or will be free from sin it means the baby is a complete human being, he or she fits the 'human manual' so to speak.

Perfection is back to the state that Adam was created, without sin yet with free will choice, the perfection which Jesus as flesh has shown us......

reddogs · Dec 12, 2015

Here is Ellen White on the subject...
"
The Lord has let His light shine upon us in these last days, that the gloom and darkness which have been gathering in past generations because of sinful indulgence, might in some degree be dispelled, and that the train of evils which have resulted because of intemperate eating and drinking, might be lessened.

The Lord in wisdom designed to bring His people into a position where they would be separate from the world in spirit and practice, that their children might not so readily be led into idolatry, and become tainted with the prevailing corruptions of this age. It is God's design that believing parents and their children should stand forth as living representatives of Christ, candidates for everlasting life. All who are partakers of the divine nature will escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. It is impossible for those who indulge the appetite to attain to Christian perfection. 2T 399

The Lord in wisdom designed to bring His people into a position where they would be separate from the world in spirit and practice, that their children might not so readily be led into idolatry and become tainted with the prevailing corruptions of this age. It is God's design that believing parents and their children should stand forth as living representatives of Christ, candidates for everlasting life. All who are partakers of the divine nature will escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. It is impossible for those who indulge the appetite to attain to Christian perfection. You cannot arouse the moral sensibilities of your children while you are not careful in the selection of their food. The tables that parents usually prepare for their children are a snare to them. Their diet is not simple, and is not prepared in a healthful manner. The food is frequently rich and fever-producing, having a tendency to irritate and excite the tender coats of the stomach. The animal propensities are strengthened and bear sway, while the moral and intellectual powers are weakened and become servants to the baser passions. You should study to prepare a simple yet nutritious diet. Flesh meats, and rich cakes and pies prepared with spices of any kind, are not the most healthful and nourishing diet. Eggs should not be placed upon your table. They are an injury to your children. Fruits and grains, prepared in the most simple form, are the most healthful, and will impart the greatest amount of nourishment to the body, and, at the same time, not impair the intellect. 2T 399

The question of how to preserve the health is one of primary importance. When we study this question in the fear of God, we shall learn that it is best, for both our physical and our spiritual advancement, to observe simplicity in diet. Let us patiently study this question. We need knowledge and judgement in order to move wisely in this matter. Nature's laws are not to be resisted, but obeyed.

Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods, tea and coffee, and rich and unhealthful food preparations, and who are determined to make a covenant with God by sacrifice, will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetites be cleansed, and that self-denial be practised in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people. . . .

There are some professed believers who accept certain portions of the Testimonies as the message of God, while they reject those portions that condemn their favourite indulgences. Such persons are working contrary to their own welfare, and the welfare of the church. It is essential that we walk in the light while we have the light. Those who claim to believe in health reform, and yet work counter to its principles in the daily life practice, are hurting their own souls and are leaving wrong impressions upon the minds of believers and unbelievers. . . . 9T 153,154

God has called His people to glory and virtue, and these will be manifest in the lives of all who are truly connected with Him. Having become partakers of the heavenly gift, they are to go on unto perfection, being `kept by the power of God through faith' [1 Pet. 1:5]. AA 530

Love is the basis of godliness. Whatever the profession, no man has pure love to God unless he has unselfish love for his brother. But we can never come into possession of this spirit by trying to love others. What is needed is the love of Christ in the heart. When self is merged in Christ, love springs forth spontaneously. The completeness of Christ is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within--when the sunshine of heaven fill the heart and is revealed in the countenance. COL 384

"When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he putteth in the sickle, because the harvest is come." Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own.

It is the privilege of every Christian not only to look for but to hasten the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, (2 Peter 3:12, margin). Were all who profess His name bearing fruit to His glory, how quickly the whole world would be sown with the seed of the gospel. Quickly the last great harvest would be ripened, and Christ would come to gather the precious grain. COL 69

Heaven may invite them, and present its choicest blessings, and they may have every facility to develop a perfect character; but all will be in vain unless they are willing to help themselves. They must put forth their own god-given powers, or they will sink lower and lower, and be of no account for good, either in time or in eternity. CTBH 149

`Be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.' 2 Pet. 3:14. This is the standard for which every Christian must strive, not in his own natural ability, but through the grace given him of Jesus Christ. Let us wrestle for the mastery over every sin, and be able to check every impatient, fretful expression. OHC 235 (LET 38,1893)

The Lord has said, "I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. . . . And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you, and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh." In the rainbow above the throne is an everlasting testimony that "God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Whenever the law is presented before the people, let the teacher of the truth point to the throne arched with the rainbow of promise, the righteousness of Christ. The glory of the law is Christ; he came to magnify the law, and to make it honourable. Make it appear distinct that mercy and peace have met together in Christ, and righteousness and truth have embraced each other. When you look to his throne, offering up your penitence, praise, and thanksgiving that you may perfect Christian character, and represent Christ to the world, you abide in Christ, and Christ abides in you; you have the peace that passes all understanding. We need continually to meditate upon Christ's attractive loveliness. We must direct minds to Jesus, fasten them upon him. In every discourse dwell upon the divine attributes. RH DEC.13,1892

Christ has made every provision for the sanctification of His Church. He has made abundant provision for every soul to have such grace and strength that he will be more than a conqueror in the warfare against sin. The Saviour is wounded afresh and put to open shame when His people pay no heed to His word. He came to this world and lived a sinless life, that in His power His people might also live lives of sinlessness. He desires them by practising the principles of truth to show to the world that God's grace has power to sanctify the heart. RH DEC.14,1906

Christ said of the Spirit, `He shall glorify me.' As Christ glorified the Father by the demonstration of his love, so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing to the world the riches of his grace. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honour of God, the honour of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of his people....

Those who are unbelieving do not receive the rich endowment of grace that would make them wise unto salvation, patient, forbearing, quick to perceive and appreciate heavenly ministrations, quick to discern Satan's devices, and strong to resist sin. God cannot do his mighty work for them because of their unbelief....

[God] longs to reveal his grace. If his people will remove the obstructions, he will pour forth the waters of salvation in abundant streams through human channels. RH MAY 19,1904

He made an offering so complete that through his grace every one may reach the standard of perfection. Of those who receive his grace and follow his example it will be written in the book of life, `Complete in him - without spot or stain' [Col. 2:10]....

Said the great apostle to the Gentiles, [Gal. 2:20 quoted.]. By faith Paul appropriated the grace of Christ, and this grace supplied the necessities of his soul.... This is the experience we need, that in a time when iniquity prevails, we may say, `I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.' Pray for this faith. Strive for it. Believe that God will give it to you. RH MAY 30,1907

There remains now only a little while in which we can work to save our own souls and the souls of others; and we want all the powers that God has given us cleansed and sanctified....

[371.9]It is our privilege now, in this world, to be workers together with God. But first of all, we must be reconverted. Only when the brain-power and the talent of speech are sanctified, are we fitted for service. SAT 368FF

There are many who will be lost because they depend on legal religion, or mere repentance for sin. But repentance for sin alone cannot work the salvation of any soul. Man cannot be saved by his own works. Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God. ST DEC.30,1889

The case of Daniel may be studied with profit by all who desire perfection of character. He and his companions were sincere, faithful Christians. To them the will of God was the supreme law of life. They knew that in order to glorify God all their faculties must be developed, and they sought to gain knowledge, that they might perfect a Christian character, and stand in that heathen nation as fitting representatives of the true religion. In order to preserve health, they resolved to avoid the luxuries of the king's table, they refused to partake of any stimulating drink, but practised strict temperance in all things, that they might not enfeeble brain or muscle. They exerted all their powers to work out their own salvation, and God worked in them to will and to do of his good pleasure. Under his training, their faculties were able to do the highest service for him....

When Nebuchadnezzar's golden image was set up ... Daniel's three companions were commanded to fall down and worship it; but their principles forbade them to pay homage to the idol, for it was a rival to the God of heaven. They knew that they owed every faculty they possessed to God, and while their hearts were full of generous sympathy toward all men, they had a lofty aspiration to prove themselves entirely loyal to their God....

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and all who live in communion with their Creator, will have an understanding of his design in their creation, and a sense of their own obligation to employ their faculties to the very best purpose. They will seek neither to glorify nor to depreciate themselves, but they will glorify God; for the man who consents to be moulded and fashioned after the divine similitude, is the noblest specimen of the work of God....

[336A.1] God calls upon all men to avail themselves of the blessing he has set before them, that they may co-operate with him in carrying forward the great work of redemption. He has given his Holy Spirit as a power sufficient to overcome all man's hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong. By yielding his capabilities to the control of this Spirit, man will be impressed with God's perfect character, and will become an instrument through which he can reveal his mercy, his goodness, and his love.

In the attainment of a perfect Christian character, the culture of the intellect is necessary, in order that we may understand the revelation of the will of God to us. This cannot be neglected by those who are obedient to God's commandments. In our intellectual faculties, we possess God's endowment. These faculties were not given us for the service of self, but for the service of God; and they are to be treated as a higher power, to rule the things of the body. They are derived from God, not self-created, and should be consecrated to his work. ST NOV.5,1896

Our Saviour does not require impossibilities of any soul. He expects nothing of His disciples that He is not willing to give them grace and strength to perform. He would not call upon them to be perfect if He had not at His command every perfection of grace to bestow on the ones upon whom He would confer so high and holy a privilege TMK 130 (MS 148,1902)

Our effort is ever to combine with the divine. Our intellect, our perceptive powers, all the strength of our being, must be called into exercise. We must co-operate with God in this work of salvation.... If we will work to overcome every defect in our characters, God will give us increased light and strength and help. YI JAN.4,1900 (MYP 105)"

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 12, 2015

Amen... thanx brother for posting these words this Sabbath. May God richly bless you and your family this day.

ricker · Dec 18, 2015

reddogs said:
Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. So how is this 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

The obvious answer from Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 19, 2015

ricker said:
The obvious answer from Corinthians 15:
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

So, we can unreservedly keep on sinning til Jesus comes?

What many fail to understand is that this life is a testing ground to see if we truly have the desire to dwell in Heaven and the new earth. Most 'Christians' would not enjoy eternity with God because they love their own iniquity more than they love God, the desire for sin is still controlling them. Remember that when we are changed by Christ at His coming, we will still have free will... He cannot change something in us that we still desire. His work will be to perfect in us that which we have been striving for all along...

The above verse says that what Christ will give us is something that is not of this world... immortality and incorruption. Overcoming sin, however, is a Biblical principle, as given to us in the examples of Enoch, Moses, David and most importantly Jesus.

CaptainToad · Dec 19, 2015

EastCoastRemnant said:
So, we can unreservedly keep on sinning til Jesus comes?

What many fail to understand is that this life is a testing ground to see if we truly have the desire to dwell in Heaven and the new earth. Most 'Christians' would not enjoy eternity with God because they love their own iniquity more than they love God, the desire for sin is still controlling them. Remember that when we are changed by Christ at His coming, we will still have free will... He cannot change something in us that we still desire. His work will be to perfect in us that which we have been striving for all along...

The above verse says that what Christ will give us is something that is not of this world... immortality and incorruption. Overcoming sin, however, is a Biblical principle, as given to us in the examples of Enoch, Moses, David and most importantly Jesus.

a very delicate subject indeed

the thing is that perfection is in the eye of the Beholder IMHO. I, probably, would never come and say that I have achieved a status of perfection (maybe the Lord will correct me if I am wrong). Its not that I desire to sin perpetually, its not like that - its life which does show me all the time that I am a sinner - I might, of course, try to overcome sin and desire overcoming sin - but still sin is within me, its a part of me as I have finally realized. No matter how good we are we are still prone to sin and even if we dont break the 10 commandments we might still sin

On the other hand, like I said, I have a sinful nature, and can only judge things from my perspective.
So, maybe there are people around this forum who have levelled up and gotten rid of said nature.

Is there any one on this forum who will stand up and say he or she has achieved perfection?

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 19, 2015

CaptainToad said:
I might, of course, try to overcome sin and desire overcoming sin - but still sin is within me, its a part of me as I have finally realized.

That's just it.. it's not about us... other than praying with faith for victory over sin and temptation when it first enters your mind... temptation is not sin but the indulgence of, is. We don't attain to perfection... in Christ (through prayer and surrender) we overcome. Full perfection comes at the resurrection...

ricker · Dec 20, 2015

EastCoastRemnant said:
So, we can unreservedly keep on sinning til Jesus comes?

What many fail to understand is that this life is a testing ground to see if we truly have the desire to dwell in Heaven and the new earth. Most 'Christians' would not enjoy eternity with God because they love their own iniquity more than they love God, the desire for sin is still controlling them. Remember that when we are changed by Christ at His coming, we will still have free will... He cannot change something in us that we still desire. His work will be to perfect in us that which we have been striving for all along...

The above verse says that what Christ will give us is something that is not of this world... immortality and incorruption. Overcoming sin, however, is a Biblical principle, as given to us in the examples of Enoch, Moses, David and most importantly Jesus.

Wow, I quoted a very relevant passage in the Bible and I get accused of implying all sorts of things.

EastCoastRemnant · Dec 20, 2015

ricker said:
Wow, I quoted a very relevant passage in the Bible and I get accused of implying all sorts of things.

Excuse me... where in my response did I even address you personally? I see the use of 'we', 'us' and 'many/most' but strangely no 'you'... get over yourself Ricker, your narcissism is showing.

Maybe try to refute or counter the statements with scripture and reasoning rather that play victim...

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2016

reddogs said:
Many have argued against perfection, but yet everyone knows that mans carnal imperfection or sin will not be let into heaven. So how is this 'Gordian Knot' to be resolved?

No sin can be happening at the Rev 16 point of the 7 last plagues -- among saints because of Rev 15:8 issue of no work being done in the heavenly sanctuary "until" and so that - the 7 last plagues may be poured out. Christ's work of pleading His blood for man's sin has ended just prior to the 7 last plagues

But that does not mean that the saints will ever be able to say "I do not sin" or "I have ceased to sin" until the 2nd coming - because no Bible text says the saints have any such knowledge about themselves. The closer we come to Christ the more imperfect and flawed we appear to be in our own eyes.

overcomer · Feb 1, 2016

I recently attended a SDA church is the NYC metro area. The 'seasoned' pastor gave a sermon on the perfect Christians. He asserts that 'perfect Christians' will never stop sinning until the twinkling of the eye, the trump of God. What a false preacher! (and we have too many of them!) But what disturbed me is the fact the elders sitting in the front were shouting 'hallelujah' to what he was espousing.

For a moment I thought I was back at the Pentecostal church which I left for the greater light!

When do Christians characters must be perfected to Christ-like? Prior to entering into the Most Holy place to be judged at the close of personal probation.

"Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” --- Maranatha, p224.

Reaching the Condition of Sinlessness—Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (Manuscript 122, 1901). SDA Bible Commentary, Vol 6, p1118, ST, July 23, 1902, In Heavenly Places, p 146.5

“I will never advocate the popular theory that it does not matter what doctrine men espouse, if they only have faith. “Faith without works is dead, being alone.” Genuine faith will be expressed by good works. We are looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. We may not be living when Christ shall come in power and great glory, for all are subject to death at any time, but if we are righteous, in harmony with the law of God, we shall respond to the voice that will call the people of God from their graves, and shall come forth to receive immortality. It is only the blessed and holy who will be ready for the first resurrection; for when Christ comes, he will not change the character. The change that will take place will be that change spoken of by Paul when he says: “We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” The word of God declares that we must be found blameless, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Now we are to learn obedience, submission to the divine will, that God may work in us to will and to do of his good-pleasure, and that we may work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. But our own efforts are of no avail to atone for sin or to renew the heart. Only the blood of Christ can atone for us; his grace alone can create in us a clean heart, and enable us to obey God’s law. In him is our only hope.” --- ST, Feb 9, 1891

In heaven there is perfect order, perfect obedience, perfect peace and harmony. Those who have had no respect for order or discipline in this life, would have no respect for the order which is observed in heaven. They can never be admitted into heaven, for all worthy of an entrance there will love order and respect discipline. The characters formed in this, will determine the future life. When Christ shall come, he will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character, and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. ---Christian Education, p237

The world’s Redeemer declares, “I have kept my Father’s commandments.” “I counsel thee,” saith the True Witness, “to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear.” Christ’s righteousness will not cover the unrighteousness of any one. “All unrighteousness is sin,” and “sin is the transgression of the law,” therefore, those who are breaking the law of God and teaching others to break it, will not be covered with the garments of Christ’s righteousness. He came not to save men in their sins; but from their sins. “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him.” These utterances are weighty, and should be duly considered. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned [transgressed the law], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” We need an advocate with the Father, because it is the Father’s law that we have broken. We need to repent of our transgression, and return to our allegiance to God. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” Here it is plainly stated that whosoever abideth in Christ will not be a transgressor of the law of God.

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness, is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the Devil; for the Devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.” He was manifested to destroy, not the royal law of God, but “the works of the Devil.” “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the Devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God.” “And he that keepeth his commandments, dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the spirit which he hath given us.” “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

EastCoastRemnant · Feb 1, 2016

Sister White said the last deception by Satan will to make of none effect the testimonies...

masmpg · Oct 25, 2016

EastCoastRemnant said:
So, we can unreservedly keep on sinning til Jesus comes?

What many fail to understand is that this life is a testing ground to see if we truly have the desire to dwell in Heaven and the new earth. Most 'Christians' would not enjoy eternity with God because they love their own iniquity more than they love God, the desire for sin is still controlling them. Remember that when we are changed by Christ at His coming, we will still have free will... He cannot change something in us that we still desire. His work will be to perfect in us that which we have been striving for all along...

The above verse says that what Christ will give us is something that is not of this world... immortality and incorruption. Overcoming sin, however, is a Biblical principle, as given to us in the examples of Enoch, Moses, David and most importantly Jesus.

I like this. Many are very confused on this most important doctrine of all. Perfection, sanctification, Justification. These are the most important doctrines that Christians must know as fact, well, by faith, which should be as strong as fact. If we have these three issues, which comprise the doctrine of salvation wrong we will be lost. Many have been, are and will keep on sinning their way to the grave.

I have spent my whole Christian experience studying Ephesians 2:8-10, the most important context in the bible, which if we have it wrong we will be lost. Satan wants us to have 99% of the truth but this seemingly minute issue, which most of us have wrong, should be our life's research to be certain God reveals it to our hearts.

I am starting a new thread on righteousness by faith which is what this issue boils down to.

I will leave a couple verses here to contemplate. First off we must be sanctified, past tense in order to do the Lord's work 2Timothy:2:21: "If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." Second is one of the reasons God gave us grace found in Romans:1:5: "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:" God gave us grace FOR OBEDIENCE! Without the power of the cross, which is where God displayed His grace, we cannot overcome one sin. 1Corinthians:1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." That is why the cross must be at the center of all our teachings.

masmpg · Oct 25, 2016

overcomer said:
I recently attended a SDA church is the NYC metro area. The 'seasoned' pastor gave a sermon on the perfect Christians. He asserts that 'perfect Christians' will never stop sinning until the twinkling of the eye, the trump of God. What a false preacher! (and we have too many of them!) But what disturbed me is the fact the elders sitting in the front were shouting 'hallelujah' to what he was espousing.

For a moment I thought I was back at the Pentecostal church which I left for the greater light!

When do Christians characters must be perfected to Christ-like? Prior to entering into the Most Holy place to be judged at the close of personal probation.

"Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments, will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression.” --- Maranatha, p224.

Reaching the Condition of Sinlessness—Those only who through faith in Christ obey all of God’s commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression. They testify to their love of Christ by obeying all His precepts (Manuscript 122, 1901). SDA Bible Commentary, Vol 6, p1118, ST, July 23, 1902, In Heavenly Places, p 146.5

“I will never advocate the popular theory that it does not matter what doctrine men espouse, if they only have faith. “Faith without works is dead, being alone.” Genuine faith will be expressed by good works. We are looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Saviour Jesus Christ. We may not be living when Christ shall come in power and great glory, for all are subject to death at any time, but if we are righteous, in harmony with the law of God, we shall respond to the voice that will call the people of God from their graves, and shall come forth to receive immortality. It is only the blessed and holy who will be ready for the first resurrection; for when Christ comes, he will not change the character. The change that will take place will be that change spoken of by Paul when he says: “We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” The word of God declares that we must be found blameless, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing. Now we are to learn obedience, submission to the divine will, that God may work in us to will and to do of his good-pleasure, and that we may work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. But our own efforts are of no avail to atone for sin or to renew the heart. Only the blood of Christ can atone for us; his grace alone can create in us a clean heart, and enable us to obey God’s law. In him is our only hope.” --- ST, Feb 9, 1891

In heaven there is perfect order, perfect obedience, perfect peace and harmony. Those who have had no respect for order or discipline in this life, would have no respect for the order which is observed in heaven. They can never be admitted into heaven, for all worthy of an entrance there will love order and respect discipline. The characters formed in this, will determine the future life. When Christ shall come, he will not change the character of any individual. Precious, probationary time is given to be improved in washing our robes of character, and making them white in the blood of the Lamb. ---Christian Education, p237

The world’s Redeemer declares, “I have kept my Father’s commandments.” “I counsel thee,” saith the True Witness, “to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear.” Christ’s righteousness will not cover the unrighteousness of any one. “All unrighteousness is sin,” and “sin is the transgression of the law,” therefore, those who are breaking the law of God and teaching others to break it, will not be covered with the garments of Christ’s righteousness. He came not to save men in their sins; but from their sins. “And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected; hereby know we that we are in him.” These utterances are weighty, and should be duly considered. “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned [transgressed the law], we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” “My little children, these things I write unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” We need an advocate with the Father, because it is the Father’s law that we have broken. We need to repent of our transgression, and return to our allegiance to God. “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins: and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not; whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.” Here it is plainly stated that whosoever abideth in Christ will not be a transgressor of the law of God.

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness, is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the Devil; for the Devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the Devil.” He was manifested to destroy, not the royal law of God, but “the works of the Devil.” “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the Devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God.” “And he that keepeth his commandments, dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the spirit which he hath given us.” “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.”

AMEN OVERCOMER!!! Did you take that pastor aside and show him these quotes you left here? It is our duty to do that. The reason the church is in the condition it is in, and the reason Jesus has not come to take us home is because the congregations have allowed open sin to exist in the local congregations, divisions and conferences.

One great study is Achan. I know you have SOP on disk so study out what happened to the children of Israel because of Achan, and you will find how Sister White parallels this event to God's church today.

Jesus is coming for a united body, and many of those sitting in the pews being lulled to sleep with the lovey dovey peace and safety gospel need to hear the trumpet give a certain sound by the watchmen. We, you and I are watchmen on the walls of Zion! Those who are still sucking on the milk have no clue what that even means. When someone, even whole families, even generations of families are still on the milk... They will have much to be accountable for, but we, the watchmen, are accountable in a way that if we do not sound the alarm their blood will be on our hands Ezekiel 3&33.

I invite you to come and help out in the new thread I am creating today called righteousness by faith. This is the bottom line, and we are told, and it is obvious, that the church still has not accepted it. Somewhere, in the SOP, I heard that Jesus will not come until His church understands this doctrine. It might have been AT Jones that said it.

masmpg · Oct 25, 2016

BobRyan said:
No sin can be happening at the Rev 16 point of the 7 last plagues -- among saints because of Rev 15:8 issue of no work being done in the heavenly sanctuary "until" and so that - the 7 last plagues may be poured out. Christ's work of pleading His blood for man's sin has ended just prior to the 7 last plagues

But that does not mean that the saints will ever be able to say "I do not sin" or "I have ceased to sin" until the 2nd coming - because no Bible text says the saints have any such knowledge about themselves. The closer we come to Christ the more imperfect and flawed we appear to be in our own eyes.

If we say we have no sin we are in fact sinning, because of pride.

I ask people this question all the time, and some of the responses I get are amazing, even from Ty Gibson. When we get on our knees in the morning and confess all our sins, one by one if necessary, do we still have sin in our hearts? I studied with Ty Gibson and asked him this and he flat out said yes! I told him he is calling God a liar. 1John 1:9 is a very popular verse among those who know the truth. God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, but that does not give us the ability to say we are sinless, even though at that moment we actually are. Some have told me that when I ask this question is it not the same as saying "I am sinless"? When we acknowledge the fact that God cleanses us from all unrighteousness when we ask Him we are in fact showing our faith in His promises, not boastfully saying "I am sinless". Quite a difference.

BobRyan · Oct 25, 2016

BobRyan said:
No sin can be happening at the Rev 16 point of the 7 last plagues -- among saints because of Rev 15:8 issue of no work being done in the heavenly sanctuary "until" and so that - the 7 last plagues may be poured out. Christ's work of pleading His blood for man's sin has ended just prior to the 7 last plagues

But that does not mean that the saints will ever be able to say "I do not sin" or "I have ceased to sin" until the 2nd coming - because no Bible text says the saints have any such knowledge about themselves. The closer we come to Christ the more imperfect and flawed we appear to be in our own eyes.

masmpg said:
If we say we have no sin

If we think we can sin without a High Priest in the Hebrews 8 and 9 Sanctuary interceding for us - and still live -- we have not read enough of the Bible.

God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, but that does not give us the ability to say we are sinless

good point - and so the answer I gave never made the statement "This is when we will say we are sinless".

But as you know many who oppose the Bible truths of Rev 15:8 and 1 John 2:1 and 1 John 3:4-9 would like to insert something like "people who say they are sinless are ...." as if that is what is going on.

As we always say in these discussions "details matter"

BobRyan · Oct 25, 2016

EastCoastRemnant said:
Sister White said the last deception by Satan will to make of none effect the testimonies...

That is true - but more often than not - those who attack the Testimonies - first reject the Bible on key Bible details.

overcomer · Oct 25, 2016

masmpg said:
If we say we have no sin we are in fact sinning, because of pride.

I ask people this question all the time, and some of the responses I get are amazing, even from Ty Gibson. When we get on our knees in the morning and confess all our sins, one by one if necessary, do we still have sin in our hearts? I studied with Ty Gibson and asked him this and he flat out said yes! I told him he is calling God a liar. 1John 1:9 is a very popular verse among those who know the truth. God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness, but that does not give us the ability to say we are sinless, even though at that moment we actually are. Some have told me that when I ask this question is it not the same as saying "I am sinless"? When we acknowledge the fact that God cleanses us from all unrighteousness when we ask Him we are in fact showing our faith in His promises, not boastfully saying "I am sinless". Quite a difference.

Yeah, that sinless state is the destination. But we can only focus on the journey. If our eyes are fixed on Jesus, then we always will fall short of him. Even the 144000 will experience the intensive soul searching if all their sins have been atoned for during the time of Jacob's trouble. So it's one thing to say 'I have the assurance of salvation', it's another to say 'I have arrived'.

Perfection, when will we gain it?

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