Perceptions on Halloween

Quid est Veritas? · Oct 9, 2017

Halloween means nothing to me. It is not practiced in my country. There are half-hearted attempts by stores to sell seasonal merchandise on occasion, but this is usually one small shelf or so, and sometimes fails spectacularly with the goods remaining unsold and their prices plummeting week on week. Some university students may hold costume parties, but that is about it.

The Christian observances are also unknown generally here. I would think though, that if pressed on it, most of my fellow South Africans would not agree with its observation.

Goatee · Oct 9, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
Except Halloween is just the eve before All Saints Day. It's part of your religious calendar and mine, known as the Triduum of Allhallowsmas.

-CryptoLutheran

Not the way it is celebrated these days!

Goatee · Oct 9, 2017

Non sequitur said:
It's the beginning of a 3-day observance, Allhallowtide, dedicated to remembering the dead, including martyrs, saints, and all faithful departed (Christians).

Ironic.

Look, getting kids, adults to dress up in devil costumes, with blood everywhere and skeletons etc etc etc is not part of Christianity!

cloudyday2 · Oct 9, 2017

I read that in many Christian cultures, Halloween is somewhat like Memorial Day in the US. People go to cemeteries to pay their respects to deceased family.

TheOldWays · Oct 9, 2017

I don't really put much thought into it. My daughter loves it as she gets to go trick or treating but beyond that for me it's just another day.

Robban · Oct 9, 2017

cloudyday2 said:
I read that in many Christian cultures, Halloween is somewhat like Memorial Day in the US. People go to cemeteries to pay their respects to deceased family.

Here it is called All saints day, it is the custom to light outdoor candles on graves,
I would think most do it in rememberence and respect

The halloween thing seems to come from America, it has not been so sucsessful,

Though I cannot say, I do not live on the leafy side of town.

~Anastasia~ · Oct 9, 2017

Interesting if both the typical things associated with Halloween itself (the costumes, candy, scary stuff Halloween) are associated only with America, while at the same time the major objections are among certain denominations here as well.

I remember reading a tract (probably Jack Chick's) that said all the scary stuff was also associated with traditions in the U.K. and had at least some origins there, possibly it mentioned other counties as well. I don't remember all of what it said.

I do agree that the directed focus on "scary-evil" that is sometimes the way it is celebrated is hardly Christian. I suppose the degree to which it is an actual problem depends on how you interact with it.

As for myself, as I said, we just don't.

Non sequitur · Oct 9, 2017

Goatee said:
Look, getting kids, adults to dress up in devil costumes, with blood everywhere and skeletons etc etc etc is not part of Christianity!

You should practice on honor your religion, regardless of what others do with it.

Just because Hitler ate breakfast, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

#HitlerAteBreakfast

Baby Cottontail · Oct 9, 2017

Zoness said:
Given that its the month of Samhain and I am mid-ritual planning as we speak I figured I'd ask the forum given its pretty substantial change in demographics this year. As a Christian or non-Christian, what is your perception of Halloween?

Since they fall on the same day and Halloween is the better known of the two I figured it would be casting the widest net to ask about it. Do a big number of Christians still conflate Halloween with devil worship? Has there been a change of heart in either direction on the subject?

The thread isn't about me but my answer is its basically the highest religious day of my calendar but even for non-religious reasons I love it so.

Thanks.

I personally do not care a whole lot for Halloween, although I don't think it is necessarily evil. People can have fun with the season, and that is fine.

What I don't like about it, though, is when people get into too much scary or demonic stuff, or if they use the day for engaging in some practices that I think are unbiblical.

My personal opinion on All Saints Day itself is that it started out as a pagan holiday, and was reappropriated to remember Christians who have died. There are some nice aspects, which I will explain below.

My pastor really, really likes All Saints Day, so he makes a big deal about that. For me, it's just a day. It's nice to remember people who died over the past year, and kind of have a one last recognition of them. It's also nice to think about the fact that the church is made up of believers since its founding, and that Christians have worshiped with God for hundreds of years, etc.

ViaCrucis · Oct 9, 2017

Goatee said:
Not the way it is celebrated these days!

Halloween, as a secular observance, is a very recent phenomenon that has nothing to do with anything evil. In the early part of the 20th century Halloween had become an occasion for teenagers to pull pranks--even today this happens when teens toilet paper or egg a house or car--but some of the pranks back then were far from harmless. And so communities and business worked together to find an alternative, they started to hand out candy and have kids dress up in costumes. Trick or treating was created, and over time "spooky" stuff came about purely because it was fun. Ghosts, skeletons, jack-o-lanterns.

Then in the 1960's Anton LeVeye, the founder of the Church of Satan--which was all about self-worship not worship of the devil--decided to make Halloween a "high holy day" of his "church", in large part to troll Christian Fundamentalists. And it worked. The response from Fundamentalists was that clearly Halloween was an evil satanic holiday, why? Because apparently a troll appropriating a day made it so. Then in the 1980's the "Satanic Panic" happened, and stories of secret cabals of Satanists and witches kidnapping pets and children to sacrifice to the devil circulated in communities across the US--and the media even reported on these. This irrational panic and frenzy also focused on things like Dungeons and Dragons, and cartoon programs (as a child I was forbidden from watching the Smurfs as just an example of what things were like back then), there were other panics like apparently there were evil old ladies putting razor blades in caramel apples to murder unsuspecting children. What all these things had in common is that they were bogus, none of it was true. There were cases of murdered cats, but it turned out to be adolescent deviants, not satanic cabals or witch covens.

The problem today is that people still act as though all this stuff was true. When it wasn't, or was irrelevant (such as LeVeye claiming Halloween for his "church"). The dressing up in costumes and eating candy isn't satanic, or evil, and it's not "pagan" either. We know very little about the ancient Celtic celebration of Samhain, but best as we can tell it was a harvest festival. The big irony about all of this panic is that many churches and Christian groups out of fear of Halloween as a satanic and pagan bogeyman have instead opted to throw "harvest festivals". There's nothing "pagan" about Halloween, but a harvest festival certainly is, because seasonal festivities surrounding harvest and planting are a fairly universal phenomenon among traditional paganism from Europe and around the world.

So if one were afraid of paganism as some sort of bogeyman, having a harvest festival is a very funny way of showing it. Speaking personally, I don't think paganism is some kind of bogeyman, Pagans are just people with their own religious beliefs that differ from my own--there's nothing to be frightened of here. As being afraid of people different from me is incredibly ridiculous and bigoted.

But Halloween, as a secular observance, is fluff--an occasion for kids to dress up in costumes and eat too much sugar, and for adults to act like children. And Halloween, as for its objective meaning, remains still simply the evening prior to All Saints, an observance of the Western Christian calendar.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis · Oct 9, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
My personal opinion on All Saints Day itself is that it started out as a pagan holiday, and was reappropriated to remember Christians who have died.

This isn't actually true, though one can't be blamed for thinking it because of how often it's been repeated.

Christians had been honoring a feast dedicated to all the saints for quite a while, in the East this commemoration was on the first Sunday after Pentecost, and that's still the case on the Eastern liturgical calendar. In the West, there was no standardized celebration, in some areas it was celebrated in May, and in others (such as Ireland) it was in April. Then in the 8th century Pope Gregory III delivered an oratory in Rome dedicated to all the saints, he delivered that oratory on November 1st. In the years following churches in Western Europe, particularly around Rome, began to celebrate the Feast of All Saints on the anniversary of Gregory's oratory. Which then in the 11th century it was mandated that the Feast of All Saints become standardized and celebrated on November 1st. The earlier observances on May 13th and in other times of the year were done away with in favor of a standardized set date on the Western calendar.

It's good to remember that Ireland was pretty thoroughly Christianized in the 4th century, with the mission of St. Patrick and others, Ireland had become entirely Christian within a very short period of time, and so zealous for the new religion that they were the ones who took it upon themselves to preach the Gospel to other parts of the British Isles, such as among the Picts and Scots. While the Anglo-Saxons were largely converted by the mission of St. Augustine of Canterbury at the request of the Pope; eventually Roman and Celtic liturgical practices clashed in the region of Northumbria until the Synod of Whitby in the 7th century decreed Roman liturgical practices would dominate in the British isles (not necessarily relevant to the discussion, but interesting history nonetheless). This means that by the time of Gregory III's oratory, the Celts had been practicing Christianity for centuries, and Pagan observances had largely been relegated to the place of distant memory and legend. Virtually all our knowledge of pre-Christian Celtic Paganism comes to us from much later Christian legends and writings.

As such we don't really know much at all about Samhain, basically all our information--again--comes to us from very late Christian writings and legends written centuries after Ireland had converted to Christianity. Best as we can tell it was a harvest festival, one of four major seasonal festivals, which was an occasion for drinking and celebration, and it was believed that the walls dividing our world from the Otherworld (where fairies and other supernatural beings dwelt) became thin enough that they could cross over. A lot of modern impositions have been conflated with Samhain, such as attributing costuming, trick-or-treating, and jack-o-lanterns; but none of that has any basis in history. Costuming and trick-or-treating are wholly modern with an American origin for the purpose of trying to keep youngsters out of trouble by giving them sweets and letting them dress up.

And while Samhain certainly did happen in autumn, I question that the ancient Celts of Ireland used the Julian Calendar and thus allowing us to say it happened on November 1st, in part because apparently Samhain was a period of festivity that lasted perhaps for as long as a week, it wasn't a day but a period of sacred time for the Celts.

-CryptoLutheran

Baby Cottontail · Oct 9, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
This isn't actually true, though one can't be blamed for thinking it because of how often it's been repeated.

Christians had been honoring a feast dedicated to all the saints for quite a while, in the East this commemoration was on the first Sunday after Pentecost, and that's still the case on the Eastern liturgical calendar. In the West, there was no standardized celebration, in some areas it was celebrated in May, and in others (such as Ireland) it was in April. Then in the 8th century Pope Gregory III delivered an oratory in Rome dedicated to all the saints, he delivered that oratory on November 1st. In the years following churches in Western Europe, particularly around Rome, began to celebrate the Feast of All Saints on the anniversary of Gregory's oratory. Which then in the 11th century it was mandated that the Feast of All Saints become standardized and celebrated on November 1st. The earlier observances on May 13th and in other times of the year were done away with in favor of a standardized set date on the Western calendar.

It's good to remember that Ireland was pretty thoroughly Christianized in the 4th century, with the mission of St. Patrick and others, Ireland had become entirely Christian within a very short period of time, and so zealous for the new religion that they were the ones who took it upon themselves to preach the Gospel to other parts of the British Isles, such as among the Picts and Scots. While the Anglo-Saxons were largely converted by the mission of St. Augustine of Canterbury at the request of the Pope; eventually Roman and Celtic liturgical practices clashed in the region of Northumbria until the Synod of Whitby in the 7th century decreed Roman liturgical practices would dominate in the British isles (not necessarily relevant to the discussion, but interesting history nonetheless). This means that by the time of Gregory III's oratory, the Celts had been practicing Christianity for centuries, and Pagan observances had largely been relegated to the place of distant memory and legend. Virtually all our knowledge of pre-Christian Celtic Paganism comes to us from much later Christian legends and writings.

As such we don't really know much at all about Samhain, basically all our information--again--comes to us from very late Christian writings and legends written centuries after Ireland had converted to Christianity. Best as we can tell it was a harvest festival, one of four major seasonal festivals, which was an occasion for drinking and celebration, and it was believed that the walls dividing our world from the Otherworld (where fairies and other supernatural beings dwelt) became thin enough that they could cross over. A lot of modern impositions have been conflated with Samhain, such as attributing costuming, trick-or-treating, and jack-o-lanterns; but none of that has any basis in history. Costuming and trick-or-treating are wholly modern with an American origin for the purpose of trying to keep youngsters out of trouble by giving them sweets and letting them dress up.

And while Samhain certainly did happen in autumn, I question that the ancient Celts of Ireland used the Julian Calendar and thus allowing us to say it happened on November 1st, in part because apparently Samhain was a period of festivity that lasted perhaps for as long as a week, it wasn't a day but a period of sacred time for the Celts.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for the information. I've heard that from Pagans, so I assumed that that was the origin. My own pastor has made several comments about "thin places," and he seems to believe in the concept, although I'm not sure that he associates it with All Saints Day, although I think he has said he does think it is the thinnest on that day.

The whole "thin places" concept sounds quite pagan to me, and I am not on board with the idea.

Supposedly, one of my own ancestors helped spread the gospel and Christianity to Scotland, although that is hard to verify, as that happened so long ago.

But, anyway, thanks so much for all of that information

ViaCrucis · Oct 9, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Thanks for the information. I've heard that from Pagans, so I assumed that that was the origin. My own pastor has made several comments about "thin places," and he seems to believe in the concept, although I'm not sure that he associates it with All Saints Day, although I think he has said he does think it is the thinnest on that day.

The whole "thin places" concept sounds quite pagan to me, and I am not on board with the idea.

Supposedly, one of my own ancestors helped spread the gospel and Christianity to Scotland, although that is hard to verify, as that happened so long ago.

But, anyway, thanks so much for all of that information

There would be no basis for "thin places" in Christian thought here. The celebration of the lives of all the saints isn't that there is a "thinning", but a remembrance that we dwell in the Communion of the Saints; that the Church Militant and Church Triumphant are together one Church, the one Body of Christ; we who are alive in this life and those who have reposed in the Lord are never truly separate because, as we recall, "He is not God of the dead, but of the living" (Mark 12:27). The blessed memory of all the saints is what the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describes as the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) they are those who are on the sidelines cheering us on as we run the race to persevere, looking onward to Christ the Author and Finisher of our faith. We can be reminded of our Lord's statement, "I am the resurrection and the life, whoever believes in me will live, even though he die; whoever lives and believes in Me will never die." Not only do we look forward to the great and glorious day when the dead shall be raised up, but in Christ we have victory over death even now--that even in death there is not death, but life; for all who are in Christ live because He lives. All Saints is not about a remembrance of the dead, but a remembrance of the living; for all who sleep in Christ though they are dead in body, are nevertheless alive in Christ. In that sense, death is always "thin"; for whenever we come and gather together around Christ's Word and Sacraments we are together with all the saints, and all the angels, in celebration and worship of our Living God.

-CryptoLutheran

awitch · Oct 9, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
The response from Fundamentalists was that clearly Halloween was an evil satanic holiday, why? Because apparently a troll appropriating a day made it so.

I'd also add the popularity of slasher/horror movies in the 80s didn't help either. I believe it was the Halloween movie franchise that made up a story of Samhain being the Celtic god of the dead. I also remember an episode of the animated show The Real Ghostbusters titled, "When Halloween Was Forever" about a non-existent evil spirit named Samhain.

ViaCrucis · Oct 9, 2017

awitch said:
I'd also add the popularity of slasher/horror movies in the 80s didn't help either. I believe it was the Halloween movie franchise that made up a story of Samhain being the Celtic god of the dead. I also remember an episode of the animated show The Real Ghostbusters titled, "When Halloween Was Forever" about a non-existent evil spirit named Samhain.

The Ghostbusters thing sounds familiar, I was a fan of it as a kid (it was another show my parents didn't like me watching by the way, though I got away with watching it whereas Smurfs were totally verboten).

-CryptoLutheran

Baby Cottontail · Oct 9, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
There would be no basis for "thin places" in Christian thought here. The celebration of the lives of all the saints isn't that there is a "thinning", but a remembrance that we dwell in the Communion of the Saints; that the Church Militant and Church Triumphant are together one Church, the one Body of Christ; we who are alive in this life and those who have reposed in the Lord are never truly separate because, as we recall, "He is not God of the dead, but of the living" (Mark 12:27). The blessed memory of all the saints is what the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describes as the "great cloud of witnesses" (Hebrews 12:1) they are those who are on the sidelines cheering us on as we run the race to persevere, looking onward to Christ the Author and Finisher of our faith. We can be reminded of our Lord's statement, "I am the resurrection and the life, whoever believes in me will live, even though he die; whoever lives and believes in Me will never die." Not only do we look forward to the great and glorious day when the dead shall be raised up, but in Christ we have victory over death even now--that even in death there is not death, but life; for all who are in Christ live because He lives. All Saints is not about a remembrance of the dead, but a remembrance of the living; for all who sleep in Christ though they are dead in body, are nevertheless alive in Christ. In that sense, death is always "thin"; for whenever we come and gather together around Christ's Word and Sacraments we are together with all the saints, and all the angels, in celebration and worship of our Living God.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks I can agree with what you've said here.

I'm not exactly sure how far my pastor goes with the "thin places" concept, but he seems to believe it is a place or time in which people can be closer to God? Or closer to spiritual things? Or closer to dead spirits? He does believe the dead can interact with the living -- maybe he does think of this more in terms of all being alive in Christ. I'm not really sure, as he has not gone into a lot of detail on his "thin places" beliefs. He has only mentioned the idea a couple of times in a couple different sermons.

I'm going to be listening this year, and see if he mentions it or not. I know that it is one of his favorite Sundays.

Zoness · Oct 9, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
As a Lutheran October 31st has a somewhat unique role in our calendar, as it is known as Reformation Day. Though generally we celebrate Reformation Sunday, which is the Sunday closest to Reformation Day. Though it's not exclusionary; Reformation Day coincides with the Eve of All Saints and that's just how it is.

This year is particularly important since it will be the 500th anniversary of the Reformation (October 31st, 1517); and so it's kind of a big deal for Lutheranism around the world. One of the most brilliant things that has been happening is the way Lutherans and Catholics have been working together in different ways, to celebrate that five hundred years on, there is much that unites us rather than divides us--and that we should continue to move forward in hope of communion together some day.

Can Catholics celebrate the Reformation?
https://www.ncronline.org/news/theo...-bishops-mark-500th-anniversary-reformation-0
https://www.elca.org/News-and-Events/7876

Perhaps there is something worth saying that Reformation Day coincides with the Eve of All Saints; as we ready ourselves to remember all who have reposed in Christ, recalling the lives of our fathers and mothers, and remember and honor the Communion of Saints which both Catholics and Lutherans equally confess in the Apostles' Creed:

"I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen."

"Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the sake of the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding its shame, and has taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God." - Hebrews 12:1-2

-CryptoLutheran

That's pretty interesting. I was brought up Catholic and have casually attended Lutheran services and frankly I don't feel the differences are that giant compared to Lutherans vs even other Protestants. That said, theologically there are a lot of big ones still. Thanks for sharing though, pretty interesting.

Quid est Veritas? said:
Halloween means nothing to me. It is not practiced in my country. There are half-hearted attempts by stores to sell seasonal merchandise on occasion, but this is usually one small shelf or so, and sometimes fails spectacularly with the goods remaining unsold and their prices plummeting week on week. Some university students may hold costume parties, but that is about it.

The Christian observances are also unknown generally here. I would think though, that if pressed on it, most of my fellow South Africans would not agree with its observation.

Really this makes sense when I consider it because it takes on a different meaning in the southern hemisphere where winter is not coming but rather going. A lot of the Christian and folk and pagan concepts are inverted from the season so its already divergent from what it would be in the northern hemisphere. Plus you guys are all standing upside-down!

TheOldWays said:
I don't really put much thought into it. My daughter loves it as she gets to go trick or treating but beyond that for me it's just another day.

Interesting, correct me if I'm wrong but you've identified as pagan in the past. What holidays did you celebrate then and how do they contrast to now?

Baby Cottontail said:
I personally do not care a whole lot for Halloween, although I don't think it is necessarily evil. People can have fun with the season, and that is fine.

What I don't like about it, though, is when people get into too much scary or demonic stuff, or if they use the day for engaging in some practices that I think are unbiblical.

My personal opinion on All Saints Day itself is that it started out as a pagan holiday, and was reappropriated to remember Christians who have died. There are some nice aspects, which I will explain below.

My pastor really, really likes All Saints Day, so he makes a big deal about that. For me, it's just a day. It's nice to remember people who died over the past year, and kind of have a one last recognition of them. It's also nice to think about the fact that the church is made up of believers since its founding, and that Christians have worshiped with God for hundreds of years, etc.

Thanks for sharing. Personally the "scary" stuff doesn't bother me much compared to what's really going on in the world but I can see how it would be pretty off-putting from a Christian perspective where one is encouraged to avoid certain things. Is there a specific reason your pastor likes All Saints Day in particular? Forgive me but I see your marked as Methodist. I wasn't aware there was a certain connotation for the day in Methodism. I'm guessing its just personal preference?

TheOldWays · Oct 9, 2017

Zoness said:
Interesting, correct me if I'm wrong but you've identified as pagan in the past. What holidays did you celebrate then and how do they contrast to now?

Hello good sir. I was a solitary practitioner in all the pagan paths I practiced so I didn't really ever have a group to celebrate with. I know many a solitary practitioner do observe the pagan calendar but without any fellow pagans to share them with, I just wasn't ever drawn to celebrate them myself. Might just be me though as when I was Christian I didn't really apply any religious significance to Christmas or Easter either.

Baby Cottontail · Oct 9, 2017

Zoness said:
Thanks for sharing. Personally the "scary" stuff doesn't bother me much compared to what's really going on in the world but I can see how it would be pretty off-putting from a Christian perspective where one is encouraged to avoid certain things. Is there a specific reason your pastor likes All Saints Day in particular? Forgive me but I see your marked as Methodist. I wasn't aware there was a certain connotation for the day in Methodism. I'm guessing its just personal preference?

I made a personal decision a number of years ago that I would avoid horror movies. I don't enjoy them, and there is really nothing uplifting about them. (That could be said of other things as well.) However, horror movies are all one sided -- God is completely absent from them. The main purpose of them seems to be to evoke fear. I just don't see anything good in them.

However, I would never make this personal decision apply to anyone else, nor do I judge anyone who does watch them. Some people find them funny, and some people just like a good scare. Some people are just really entertained by them. That's all perfectly fine.

It just for my own personal walk with God, I just don't see the point in them. The same could be said for other "scary" elements.

Now -- there are things that I do think are just fun. I went to Cedar Point (not sure if you've heard of it, but it is an amusement park) last night with a friend who works there. She had free tickets to go, and so I went. Most of that was just the fun aspect. People dressed up in costumes and walked around trying to scare people at night. In my mind, this is just fun. I know they are people dressed up, and I see that kind of thing as just fun.

I went to a few of the shows. One of them was a performance by a group called Midnight Syndicate. I found that performance to be "scary." I wasn't scared, but they were trying to provoke people being scared, and the way they presented it fell into the "horror movie" category.

So...for me there is a line between fun and "scary."

I guess it is more the worldview that is being presented in these horror settings -- that there is a spiritual level that exists.

Yes, I am a United Methodist, but there is a lot of variation in the denomination. My pastor tends to be very traditional/formal in the way that he does things, and views things. However, this also seems to be the direction that the United Methodist Church is heading in. He meets with a group of pastors regularly, and some of them are Lutheran. They consider him to be almost "the other Lutheran" among them.

He very much is into the church calendar and the liturgy surrounding special days.

I would say that for him it probably is a personal preference, as I don't know how typical his view would be among United Methodist pastors, and certainly it is not typical of us laypeople. I imagine that he just likes many of the ideas that CryptoLutheran has expressed as to what All Saints Day is in his posts to me.

He also really likes Maundy Thursday and Ash Wednesday. I'm pretty sure that he's said that the Sunday after All Saints Day is his favorite Sunday, and Maundy Thursday is his favorite service of all time (probably because of its significance for communion -- communion is his favorite part of worship.)

Cearbhall · Oct 9, 2017

Zoness said:
Do a big number of Christians still conflate Halloween with devil worship? Has there been a change of heart in either direction on the subject?

I was raised in a Catholic church/school community in the U.S. Midwest. We had a school Halloween festival each year, which included a haunted house and all the normal spooky Halloween imagery.

There was one year when it wasn't held, and one year when it was called Fall Festival instead because someone must have put pressure on them. That would have been around 2002. But that was the only fuss I ever heard about it. The festival went back to having a Halloween name after that. Everyone I knew celebrated the holiday.

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