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bling

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You might want to read my post 6.

The Jews under the Law would have a good understanding of atonement by experiencing atonement for very minor sins which took little disciplining:



Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

Please think up some questions to ask me.
 
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Fervent

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There's a lot of your posts I agree with, and a lot I disagree with. The main thing is you seem to be associating atonement principally with the forgiveness of guilt, whereas in Leviticus the main concern is uncleanness wrought by sin so atonement is primarily about cleansing. That is why Leviticus 17:11 says the atonement is in the blood. Where penalty/payment is concerned it is not about making God whole but consequences to the one making the sacrifice. These animals were not just commodity livestock, but likely a significant part of the people's livelihood. The variations depending on sacrificer were, as you noted, likely about making the impact on the one making the sacrifice an equivalent burden. The main thing is that these sacrifices were given by God to the Israelites as a systematic way to maintain their vassal relationship with Him as those already having His favor, not ways the Israelite's sought to win God's favor.
 
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bling

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Atonement is mainly about disciplining the sinner for their sinning: thus, In lev. 5 you have different sacrificial values for the exact same sin done by people of different wealth to equalize the hardship (punishment/discipline). A bag of flour has no blood.

If Christ was not to be coming along later as our Atonement sacrifice, all these sacrifices would lack any meaning. These sacrifice systems did not maintain the Israel nation in their relationship with God, but God’s forgiveness allowed them to return to a relationship. God can forgive without any sacrifices, but as a wonderful parent God need to see to our fair/just punishment/discipline for our sins if at all possible. Only relative minor sins, unintentional sins could be atoned for with these little atonement sacrifices producing some hardship discipline.

There is nothing we can do worthy of God’s favor and God loves all His children, not having favorites.
 
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Fervent

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Atonement is about restoring a sinner, not disciplining them. While discipline may be part of the process, it is not the central feature. Most of what you are saying about "fair/just punishment/discipline" comes from philosophizing on the matter from a view that sees guilt as the principal separation between God and man. While the NT does address the guilt of the sinner, the atonement in the sacrifices was about providing a cleansing salve from sins stain. These sacrifices were a gift from God to the Israelites as His mechanism for maintaining the covenant relationship and His continued dwelling in their midst. It wasn't them buying favor or suffering consequences, but a matter of strict obedience to God's instruction.
 
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bling

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What are you finding in Lev. 5 that suggests it is not a disciplining activity, since it certainly provides the benefits of being disciplined:

  • The sin will be more careful in the future to avoid the penalty for these minor sins.
  • People witnessing what the sinner has to go through will be even more diligent in their future to avoid these sins.
  • The sinner can now put the sin behind him, since he has gone through the disciplining for these minor sins.
  • The sinner can experience the cost for almost accidental and unintentional sins and imagine how much greater the discipline would have to be for rebellious intentional sins.
  • The sinner should be drawn closer to God as part of the results of his personal actions in the temple. The sinner’s obedient actions can be offered up to God as worship.
  • The sinner can use his disciplining as a witness to others.
There are good logical reasons for these sin sacrifices, which helps man, so are God’s gift to man.

The blood of animals is certainly used for cleansing, which almost seems contradictory since red blood is messy, but again this goes back to Christ’s blood.

I do find the Bible to be logical, which does not make it just philosophical. God’s Love does exceed logic, but it can be seen as God’s logic.
 
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Fervent

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I'm not denying that there may have been a penal function in the sacrifice, but the atonement aspect is not disciplinary but medicinal. These sacrifices were given with or without a consciousness of guilt, both as an ordinary part of communal life and under the faintest hint of suspicion. They were also given by relatives on account of another(such as Job's offerings for his children). The way Leviticus describes them in general is as meal offerings, and calls them a sweet savor. The sacrifice is not what makes atonement for the sinner, it is the priest that makes atonement and atonement is in the blood because the life is in the blood. So while the act of making a sacrifice may have been a civic penalty, that is ancilliary to the question of atonement.
 
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bling

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I see no penal substitution with atonement:

Atone Penal Sub. (PS) Issues

1. Unjust and unfair

2. Has God seeing to the torture humiliation and murder of Christ (punishes Christ).

3. Makes God out to be blood thirsty

4. There is no logical part for man to play

5. It is not participative but passive “Christ was crucified so I do not have to be” v.s. “Christ was crucified so I must be crucified”.

6. If Christ is paying it all than there is nothing to forgive.

7. Lev. 5 describes what the atonement sacrifice is in relationship to the sinner and it is not said to replace him in any way.

8. In Lev. 5 you have the exact same sin being atoned for with different atoning sacrifices which if they are to be substitutes for the sinner wound teach God gives great value to the rich then the poor.

9. All the benefits from being lovingly fairly justly disciplined are not there with PS.

10. PS mean’s universal atonement was completed for everyone (all were atoned for so all should be saved).

11. Peter does not mention Penal Substitution in his wonderful Christ Crucified sermon on Pentecost, nor any time before the stoning of Steven and Steven’s stone it is questionable.

12. The sin sacrifices of the OT can be a bag of flour, so could a bag of flour be a human substitute.

13. There are others individuals at the cross which can be seen way better as standing in for us (mockers, soldiers, teachers of the Law , a thief), so how can we so arrogant as to say Jesus is standing in for me.

14. The idea is we are crucified “with” Christ and not instead of.

15. The Greek words translate “for” do not support the interpretation of ‘instead of”.

16. It does not explain how atonement is a ransom scenario.

17. PS emphasis is on a problem God is having and not man’s problem being solved.

18. It does not fit lots of scripture especially Ro. 3:25

19. PS emphasizes God’s wrath as the problem and not man’s personal need.

There are just a few atonement sacrifices and lot of other sacrifices, some were really fellowship sacrifices (more like an outdoor barbecue party).

Jesus is our atoning sacrifice and His blood is needed by me outside His body available to me for my cleansing. As I weekly partake of the Lord’s Supper, I can physically feel, what is spiritually happening, as the wine (representing Christ’s blood) goes down my throat over my heart cleaning my heart and making me holy. Christ shed His blood because of me and for my benefit.
 
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Fervent

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I agree with most of your points, and also find PS a poor theory. When I spoke of a penal function, I was referring to the Levitical sacrifices operating like modern day fines, though more just because they are adjusted based on the ability to pay so that the burden is comparable. There is far too much that happened at Calvary for any one theory to properly capture, which is why I prefer something like Christus Victor which is not a theory so much as it is a motif.
 
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bling

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When I dug into Christus Victor theory, the author was saying for the most part: "Jesus had to die to rise from the grave" and if pressed for the part played at the cross, it was the "Ransom Theory of Atonement". paid to satan, which I have problems with.
 
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Fervent

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Yes, the ransom theory of atonement is problematic. But Christus Victor isn't so much a theory of how Christ accomplished the atonement but the image of Christ bursting out of the grave, placing the emphasis not on Christ's death as much as on His resurrection. Death by crucifixion isn't exactly unique to Christ, but being the firstfruits of the resurrection is.
 
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bling

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"If Christ be not risen, we are wasting our time here on earth, but I also find the torture, humiliation and murder of Christ to be hugely significant to me and others. Yes, other people have died in some ways much harsher deaths, but none of them were holding back the erg to have 10,000 angles rescue them at any time plus destroy all those who put them there. Christ stayed there to help a very undeserving unworthy me, if there was any other way He would not have gone and stayed there as long as He did. Christ personally from His pray in the garden did not want to shed His blood and God personally out of empathy for Christ would not want Christ to shed His blood. This was a huge Love choice, since it was I who needed Christ to go to the cross and hang there. This allows me to be crucified with Christ empathetically, have that Acts 2:36 death blow to my heart (the worst experience I could have without literally dying). God my parent not only forgives me, but also provides a fair just disciplining for my sins (my crucifixion).
 
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bling

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I agree and you might read my post 7 and ask questions. The blood is more for cleansing and a bag of flour could be the sacrifice (Lev. 5).
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yet, you have to admit that nobody really knows the nature of God's wrath, nor of his love. ( Tina Turner — "What's feelings, got to do, got to do with it?")

Seems to me it would be a bit naïve to try to put them into a quantifiable equation.
 
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atpollard

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Seems to me it would be a bit naïve to try to put them into a quantifiable equation.
Are you calling me naive? I resemble that remark!

What is the alternative: abandon all attempts at Theology (which is all about attempting to put the things of God into ‘quantifiable equations’)?

JESUS LOVES ME, THIS I KNOW.
FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO.
(full stop, do not attempt to understand any deeper)
 
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Mark Quayle

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Are you calling me naive? I resemble that remark!

What is the alternative: abandon all attempts at Theology (which is all about attempting to put the things of God into ‘quantifiable equations’)?
Hardly! Everybody has a theology anyway, whether they realize it or not. We can't help but try to understand things, and things are necessarily related in some way to God (through the fact that he created, if no other way). And when we try to understand, we posit concepts and principles and causes and effects and so on. Our own words assist and obstruct our understanding of the truth. But never do we get anything 100% right —even when we quote from Scripture, our understanding of it is limited, at best, and usually very colored by our lack of understanding, not to mention our self-important notions of substance-to-our-thoughts.

But we are not only driven to try to understand, but we are told to do so, as we grow in grace.
JESUS LOVES ME, THIS I KNOW.
FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO.
(full stop, do not attempt to understand any deeper)
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Never was very good with peanut substitution.


But Christus Victor sounds about right.
 
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atpollard

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But Christus Victor sounds about right.
That is where I lean as well. It affirms what the Bible CLEARLY states about Jesus and simply refuses to step beyond that into “reasonable speculation” about WHY. Christ did what He did, to achieve what He achieved (no more and no less).
 
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Mark Quayle

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Where does the Bible say that God’s wrath was directed at Jesus (in any sense)?
It may be worth mentioning that God's wrath is not like ours. He doesn't do wrath because he GETS mad, like we do, but because he is purity and justice.
 
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