Pedo-Communion

prodromos · Jan 19, 2016

Albion said:
No. Confirmation is a sacrament associated with a reassertion of one's Baptismal vows and with a fuller understanding (and commitment to) the faith. Ideally, it is administered to those who have undergone a certain course of study.

So when do they receive Chrismation from their Bishop?

mark46 · Jan 19, 2016

prodromos said:
All I'm asking for is any statement put out by the Catholic Church, whether it be from individual parishes or from the Local Bishop or from Rome that supports what you claimed is the reality. If I want to form an opinion on something, I like to know what the facts are. Something got quite a lot of opinion published in the national newpapers in Australia a few months ago which turned out to be a joke. A lot of people believed it at the time.

I apologize if I was curt.

My wife has been a Catholic for over 70 years, me for over 30. We have been in many churches and know the customs of several diocese. I am simply discussing the practicality as viewed by the laity.

Over the past few years, several of our nieces and nephews have received their first communion. All were required to go through classes before that could occur. With regard to confirmation, the class time was much longer, as make sense since children are older. First communion occurs at about age 7 or 8. Confirmation at about 15. During the time of classes, parents are expected to have their children attend church. I won't leave you guessing about church attendance by teenagers after they receive their confirmations. The attendance goes way down. Attendance also goes way down for their parents.

My understanding of Catholic theology is that the initiation rites could ALL be done for children. The choices that the Church has made seem to be made for practical pastoral reasons. My guess, again MY speculation, is that if the initiation rites were all done for infants, attendance would be lower for both children and adults.

Cappadocious · Jan 20, 2016

FYI for Orthodox Chrismation is the laying on of hands. This may have to do with the fact that in our theology a presbyter's charism is not simply a lesser emanation of the bishop's, following the Chain of Being.

MKJ · Jan 20, 2016

IIRC, some Catholic diocese have been starting to move confirmation before first communion. I'm not sure how this is done practically - whether by confirming younger kids or waiting for first communion until they are older.

It is true that it is considered possible in Catholicism to confirm infants, and it's done if, for example, their is danger of death.

Many Catholic parishes don't have the bishop confirm any more. Their diocese are far too large, and also there is more tendency to want to do all the confirmations on the same day in every parish. But it is normative in Anglican diocese.

MKJ · Jan 20, 2016

Cappadocious said:
FYI for Orthodox Chrismation is the laying on of hands. This may have to do with the fact that in our theology a presbyter's charism is not simply a lesser emanation of the bishop's, following the Chain of Being.

Can the priest chrismate without the oil being blessed by the bishop? My understanding is that it is still linked to the bishop, and that the priest alone could not do it.

MKJ · Jan 20, 2016

mark46 said:
I apologize if I was curt.

My wife has been a Catholic for over 70 years, me for over 30. We have been in many churches and know the customs of several diocese. I am simply discussing the practicality as viewed by the laity.

Over the past few years, several of our nieces and nephews have received their first communion. All were required to go through classes before that could occur. With regard to confirmation, the class time was much longer, as make sense since children are older. First communion occurs at about age 7 or 8. Confirmation at about 15. During the time of classes, parents are expected to have their children attend church. I won't leave you guessing about church attendance by teenagers after they receive their confirmations. The attendance goes way down. Attendance also goes way down for their parents.

My understanding of Catholic theology is that the initiation rites could ALL be done for children. The choices that the Church has made seem to be made for practical pastoral reasons. My guess, again MY speculation, is that if the initiation rites were all done for infants, attendance would be lower for both children and adults.

There seems to be, in Catholic parishes in particular, a strong sense of sacraments as things you need to "have done." Not that you don't see that at all in Anglican or Lutheran parishes, but I don't find it to be taken for granted in quite the same way.

Although I think teens in general tend to disappear from churches. One reason simply being that in many cases that will be the first time they are able to make a choice about it at all.

Cappadocious · Jan 20, 2016

MKJ said:
Can the priest chrismate without the oil being blessed by the bishop? My understanding is that it is still linked to the bishop, and that the priest alone could not do it.

It's still linked to the bishop, but it can be performed by the priest, who exercises both charisms in that act (it would be weird to say he isn't, really). This is also connected to the episcopal link of apostolic succession. The priest is not simply the end of a grace funnel beneath the bishop who is beneath the saints who are beneath the angels who is beneath the Virgin Mary who are beneath Christ who is beneath the Father in the neoplatonic chain of being.

Cappadocious · Jan 20, 2016

MKJ said:
Although I think teens in general tend to disappear from churches. One reason simply being that in many cases that will be the first time they are able to make a choice about it at all.

Plus the childish youth group milquetoast lifestyle that any sane teen would run from as fast as possible.

MKJ · Jan 20, 2016

Cappadocious said:
It's still linked to the bishop, but it can be performed by the priest, who exercises both charisms in that act (it would be weird to say he isn't, really). This is also connected to the episcopal link of apostolic succession. The priest is not simply the end of a grace funnel beneath the bishop who is beneath the saints who are beneath the angels who is beneath the Virgin Mary who are beneath Christ who is beneath the Father in the neoplatonic chain of being.

But it isn't simply connected through the priest, was my point. If it operated in the way you are suggesting, there would be no need for specially blessed oil. The priest could do that too.

mark46 · Jan 20, 2016

MKJ said:
There seems to be, in Catholic parishes in particular, a strong sense of sacraments as things you need to "have done." Not that you don't see that at all in Anglican or Lutheran parishes, but I don't find it to be taken for granted in quite the same way.

Although I think teens in general tend to disappear from churches. One reason simply being that in many cases that will be the first time they are able to make a choice about it at all.

Yes, Catholic think that education of youth should get done. How silly of them. We have followed the guidance of those who teach. Their guidance is that if confirmation were during infancy, many parents would not give their children an exposure to the Church over several years.

So, yes their is a pastoral problem in many, many churches. The congregations are getter older as relatively few youth are brought up in the Church, or even exposed to the Church for very long. Catholics have chosen to DEAL with the issue by continuing to have communion at 7 or 8, with required classes before, and have confirmation at 15 or so, with required classes before. We can look at the results. In our town of 40,000, a new Catholic high school has been opened.

Criticize all you wish. In the US, Roman Catholics are getting their children exposed to the Church over many years. Also, parents attend Church while their children are young and are part of the life of the Church. Perhaps, all the other traditional churches don't have any problems with Sunday attendance, or not.

In the end, I don't think that making "perfect" theological choices (through choosing one theological opinion or another) needs to get in the way of pastoral concerns.
==========
And just BTW, attendance is fine in Catholic churches. Most of this is because of being open to immigrants (well, for non OBOB members). Much also is due to children being exposed to the faith and being part of your classes and groups.

graceandpeace · Jan 20, 2016

In every Episcopal Church I've been to, my kids were able to receive communion, no questions asked. They're baptized, end of story for me. My kids look forward to receiving every week.

(Not infants, but too young for confirmation classes of any sort.)

mark46 · Jan 20, 2016

MKJ said:
Can the priest chrismate without the oil being blessed by the bishop? My understanding is that it is still linked to the bishop, and that the priest alone could not do it.

My understanding is that the oil is always blessed by the bishop.

mark46 · Jan 20, 2016

graceandpeace said:
In every Episcopal Church I've been to, my kids were able to receive communion, no questions asked. They're baptized, end of story for me. My kids look forward to receiving every week.

(Not infants, but too young for confirmation classes of any sort.)

Yes, this is part of the open communion policy of TEC. All baptized Christians are welcome at the Lord's Table.

Anhelyna · Jan 20, 2016

MKJ - you asked about the Blessing of Chrism

In the Latin Church - many dioceses have the Chrism Mass on Holy Thursday. As many of the clergy as possible go to the Cathedral [ and usually there are some laity from each Parish as well ]. At this Mass the Clergy are given the newly consecrated oils to take back to their parish - Oil of Catechumens, the Chrism and the Oil of the Sick. These will be used throughout the year.

All4Christ · Jan 20, 2016

In the Orthodox Church, we have a first confession. There still is a pastoral element of teaching the children before that, and after that age, regular confession is needed for partaking in communion. Education classes still occur as well through their formative years. Withholding communion from children isn't the only way to ensure that.

I understand reasons why it may be withheld from a pastoral reason, but it is hard to understand from a perspective of the Eucharist being medicine for us. As a full baptized member of the Church, they are in need of the assistance found in communing and partaking of the body and blood of Christ. I am thankful my tradition will allow that from as early as they are baptized. It is a beautiful thing to see.

That said, that is just my personal perspective...no judgment intended.

Cappadocious · Jan 20, 2016

MKJ said:
But it isn't simply connected through the priest, was my point. If it operated in the way you are suggesting, there would be no need for specially blessed oil. The priest could do that too.

I'm saying they are connected and interdependent. The priest has the charism to, among other things, relate to the bishop and the laity as a conveyor of the laying on of hands. Can he do so without the bishop? No, but counterfactual dependence only gets you so far. It also takes a priest for a priest to do it. In the Latin churches, priests are not typically seen as having this charism within the ministerial economy of the church because they are a step too far removed.

Also, for us Chrismation is the laying on of hands for the reception of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

~Anastasia~ · Jan 20, 2016

Just thinking of something inspired by this thread.

If a denomination practiced communion being open to all baptized Christians, but did not recognize paedo-baptism, I wonder what they do if presented with a baptized infant or small child for communion ... ?

Anhelyna · Jan 20, 2016

ANASTASIA ! - wow what a question ? It's certainly an interesting one.

There are enough problems with some Latin Catholic Priests being most unwilling to Commune young EC children. No matter how it is explained to them that it is permitted and indeed encouraged - they seem afraid that it could cause scandal.

Albion · Jan 20, 2016

~Anastasia~ said:
Just thinking of something inspired by this thread.

If a denomination practiced communion being open to all baptized Christians, but did not recognize paedo-baptism, I wonder what they do if presented with a baptized infant or small child for communion ... ?

If they knew the situation, they'd probably consider the child not to have been validly baptized. Whether they'd make a special point of prohibiting the child from communing is another matter. Since these churches typically consider Holy Communion to be only a symbol, they might let it go.

Many of them distribute the elements by passing them down the pew, and they certainly do not take care to observe who takes the bread and who passes the plate without taking anything from it.

In my church, all children receive a blessing if and when they're brought to the communion rail.

~Anastasia~ · Jan 20, 2016

Lol I probably should not have asked.

Among the Baptists I was familiar with, they simply would refuse to recognize the baptism. I've never seen a child brought for communion in that case - some pastors were very strict though and I'm pretty sure would have denied it.

I'm not sure where all the mainline denominations fall on every issue. That would be a most interesting place to ask.

I was just wondering.

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