Peacemakers

lambslove said:

Well, then, I hate you a lot! (kidding)

How can it be possible to love someone by hating them??

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It's not.....I believe God Hates SIN not the sinner...not to mention as I noted earlier.....Hate is not listed as one of the attributes of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I wonder why that would be?

I think Christians spend so much time hating the sin that they forget to love the sinner!

lambslove said:

I think Christians spend so much time hating the sin that they forget to love the sinner!

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On the contrary, the more one hates sin the more they will have a deep burden for the lost. When we have an accurate biblical understanding of sin, that drives us to genuinely hate sin and reach out in Love to those who are being held in bondage by sin.

The unbeliever is a prisoner of war and we have the only weapon that can free them...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:16-18).

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rural_preacher said:

On the contrary, the more one hates sin the more they will have a deep burden for the lost. When we have an accurate biblical understanding of sin, that drives us to genuinely hate sin and reach out in Love to those who are being held in bondage by sin.

The unbeliever is a prisoner of war and we have the only weapon that can free them...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

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"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness" (Romans 1:16-18).

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I think it's exactly the opposite. The more you love the sinner, the more you will have compassion on them despite their sin and the more you will love them because you can see that they are hopelessly trapped in their sin.

When one hates the sin, hate becomes such a powerful emotion that they can't move beyond it to love the sinner. The hatred for the sin and the hatred for the sinner become a single consuming passion. The guys who go around saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" are often the ones who hold up signs saying, "God hates ****" at funerals of gay men.

Hatred for sin is solely the domain of God because he can handle that emotion without becoming overwhelmed by it. God never never commanded us to hate. Hate comes naturally to us when someone does something we strongly disagree with. God's people don't hate. God's people love.

They will call us children of the true God because of our love. They will call us children of the devil if we hate. Even the unsaved are capable of intense hate. Love is the key to the hearts of sinners.

Indeed they will know us by our Love. And our Love is different from the world's love because our Love is God's Love. And God's Love hates sin. This is not about emotion at all. I am not referring to the emotion of love or hate. I am speaking about that which goes beyond emotion...that which is the mind of Christ. Love is selfless action to the glory of God and the good of others. Hatred (of sin) is having a proper understanding of exactly what sin really is and standing against it with all the power of God (Ephesians 6:10-18).

I completely agree that we must not allow ourselves to be consumed by the human emotion of hate. That will surely drag us down into a pit out of which we cannot climb. You are right when you refer to those who hold up hateful signs and shoot abortion doctors, etc. They are wrong and they are not walking with God. They do not know the true Love of the Savior.

But a failure to put sin in its proper place and stand against it completely will ultimately lead one into the error of excusing someone's sin in order to "win" them to Christ. We must call sin what it is and be totally against it. Then we must reach out in Love to the lost and bring them in.

One will not come to the Savior unless they first realize they need a Savior. That will only happen when they come to understand what sin really is and repent of it (hate it) and turn to Jesus Christ in faith for salvation.

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rural_preacher said:

Indeed they will know us by our Love. And our Love is different from the world's love because our Love is God's Love. And God's Love hates sin. This is not about emotion at all. I am not referring to the emotion of love or hate. I am speaking about that which goes beyond emotion...that which is the mind of Christ. Love is selfless action to the glory of God and the good of others. Hatred (of sin) is having a proper understanding of exactly what sin really is and standing against it with all the power of God (Ephesians 6:10-18).

I completely agree that we must not allow ourselves to be consumed by the human emotion of hate. That will surely drag us down into a pit out of which we cannot climb. You are right when you refer to those who hold up hateful signs and shoot abortion doctors, etc. They are wrong and they are not walking with God. They do not know the true Love of the Savior.

But a failure to put sin in its proper place and stand against it completely will ultimately lead one into the error of excusing someone's sin in order to "win" them to Christ. We must call sin what it is and be totally against it. Then we must reach out in Love to the lost and bring them in.

One will not come to the Savior unless they first realize they need a Savior. That will only happen when they come to understand what sin really is and repent of it (hate it) and turn to Jesus Christ in faith for salvation.

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Do you have kids RP? When they do wrong, do you hate them for it? Do you hate what they do, or do you simply say, "They are little kids, they don't know they are doing wrong. Instead of hammering them for doing wrong, I'm going to show them love by helping them discover what's right and what's wrong. Then if they still do the same wrong again, I'm going to discipline them gently and lovingly. Then if they still do it, I'm going to discipline them more firmly until they get the understanding that they are doing wrong and must stop. In fact, I'm going to use their wrongdoing to show them the amazing grace of God." Or do you say, "You little buzzards! I hate what you just did. I love you, but I hate what you did! You are horrible for disobeying me, even though you might not have ever heard me tell you the rules! In fact, I hate your sin so much that I'm going to beat the heck out of you until you repent and come begging to God for grace and mercy!"

Clearly, the first would produce love and repentance, and the second would produce fear and hate.

It is not our place to hate the sin or the sinner. Jesus preached on the perils of hate much more than he ever preached on the evils of sin. Sin can be forgiven, but hate is a state of heart that is extremely difficult to reverse, and will land you in perdition.

What you illustrated was a clear example of the human emotion of hate. That is the kind of hate which I agreed with you is not right. It is not that emotional response of which I speak when I use the word "hate" in reference to sin and godliness. I am speaking of our attitude toward sin...not our emotions toward sin or sinners. We must have a militant attitude toward sin which is in perfect harmony with our compassion toward the lost. As I stated before, if we do not have God's attitude toward sin we will fall for the error of excusing people's sin in an attempt to "win" them to Christ. Our job is to be witnesses of Jesus Christ and the fact that He died for our sins and rose again. We must declare the message that salvation is available to all who will repent of sin and have faith in Christ.

Yes, I have children and from the very beginnings of their lives I strove to teach them right from wrong according to the Word of God. I punished wrong and praised right. I have a wonderful, loving and very close relationship with each one to this day. They understand the horribleness of sin and the unspeakable joy of living in God's Grace. Their desire is to share the Gospel of Grace with others everywhere they go. They are true soldiers of the faith.


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rural_preacher said:

What you illustrated was a clear example of the human emotion of hate. That is the kind of hate which I agreed with you is not right. It is not that emotional response of which I speak when I use the word "hate" in reference to sin and godliness. I am speaking of our attitude toward sin...not our emotions toward sin or sinners. We must have a militant attitude toward sin which is in perfect harmony with our compassion toward the lost. As I stated before, if we do not have God's attitude toward sin we will fall for the error of excusing people's sin in an attempt to "win" them to Christ. Our job is to be witnesses of Jesus Christ and the fact that He died for our sins and rose again. We must declare the message that salvation is available to all who will repent of sin and have faith in Christ.

Yes, I have children and from the very beginnings of their lives I strove to teach them right from wrong according to the Word of God. I punished wrong and praised right. I have a wonderful, loving and very close relationship with each one to this day. They understand the horribleness of sin and the unspeakable joy of living in God's Grace. Their desire is to share the Gospel of Grace with others everywhere they go. They are true soldiers of the faith.


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I guess I am only capable of human emotions. I don't know how to hate without the nasty human side effects. Only God knows how to hate divinely.

To preach the message of the gospel is not just to preach hatred of sin or the repentence of sin, it is to preach the good news of grace and mercy. God's love is the most amazing love at all, because he LOVED us when he had every right to hate us--while we were still sinners. Yet somehow he found love for us. If he had merely hated our sin, he could have never loved us enough to die for us, he would have only seen us as slithering worms unworthy of any sign of love from him. Instead, he looked deep into and saw that we really didn't know how to keep his commandments, that we didn't even understand what his commandments are, that we had no possibility of living sinlessly, so he came into our world in the form of a human and lived sinlessly as only God could, and then died for us, not despite our sin, but because of it.

When you look into a sinner's eyes, you are looking into your own eyes. You are that sinner, but for the grace of God, you are saved from the eternal consequences of that sin. The only thing separating you from that sinner is Jesus. And if you, with love not hate, tell that sinner about Christ, then there won't even be that separation.

Let me tell you about a gay man I know. All his adult life he had been told, sometimes screamed at, that he is a sinner. He is not unaware that he is a sinner. You know what no Christian ever told him before--that God loves him and came to earth to die to pay for HIS own sin, every sin and that God died so they could have a relationship together. Not one Christian ever told him that Christ didn't come into the world to condemn him, but that he should, through faith, have eternal life. Not one Christian ever got to know him as a person, to everyone of them he was merely defined by his sin. Not one ever did anything kind or loving for him, because they said they loved him and hated his sin, but they, through their words and actions, showed they hated him as well as his sin. I was the first Christian he ever met that didn't condemn him, but introduce him to the idea that God died even for homosexuals. That man now goes to church, and maybe someday he will get saved, that would never happen if all the Christians he ever met only told him about God's wrath and never demonstrated God's love and grace to him.

So, go, hate! Identify with God's wrath and not his grace and mercy. But whatever you give out will come back to you and by whatever measure you judge, you will also be judged by God.

If you must hate sin, start with your own sin and get all the logs out of your own eyes before you start to obsess with the specks in the eyes of the sinners. When you have finally dealt with all of them, you will be free because you will finally fully understand the insane depths of God's capacity to forgive. Then you will find there is no more room in your heart to hate. All your heart will be filled with love.

lambslove said:

I guess I am only capable of human emotions. I don't know how to hate without the nasty human side effects. Only God knows how to hate divinely.

To preach the message of the gospel is not just to preach hatred of sin or the repentence of sin, it is to preach the good news of grace and mercy. God's love is the most amazing love at all, because he LOVED us when he had every right to hate us--while we were still sinners. Yet somehow he found love for us. If he had merely hated our sin, he could have never loved us enough to die for us, he would have only seen us as slithering worms unworthy of any sign of love from him. Instead, he looked deep into and saw that we really didn't know how to keep his commandments, that we didn't even understand what his commandments are, that we had no possibility of living sinlessly, so he came into our world in the form of a human and lived sinlessly as only God could, and then died for us, not despite our sin, but because of it.

When you look into a sinner's eyes, you are looking into your own eyes. You are that sinner, but for the grace of God, you are saved from the eternal consequences of that sin. The only thing separating you from that sinner is Jesus. And if you, with love not hate, tell that sinner about Christ, then there won't even be that separation.

Let me tell you about a gay man I know. All his adult life he had been told, sometimes screamed at, that he is a sinner. He is not unaware that he is a sinner. You know what no Christian ever told him before--that God loves him and came to earth to die to pay for HIS own sin, every sin and that God died so they could have a relationship together. Not one Christian ever told him that Christ didn't come into the world to condemn him, but that he should, through faith, have eternal life. Not one Christian ever got to know him as a person, to everyone of them he was merely defined by his sin. Not one ever did anything kind or loving for him, because they said they loved him and hated his sin, but they, through their words and actions, showed they hated him as well as his sin. I was the first Christian he ever met that didn't condemn him, but introduce him to the idea that God died even for homosexuals. That man now goes to church, and maybe someday he will get saved, that would never happen if all the Christians he ever met only told him about God's wrath and never demonstrated God's love and grace to him.

So, go, hate! Identify with God's wrath and not his grace and mercy. But whatever you give out will come back to you and by whatever measure you judge, you will also be judged by God.

If you must hate sin, start with your own sin and get all the logs out of your own eyes before you start to obsess with the specks in the eyes of the sinners. When you have finally dealt with all of them, you will be free because you will finally fully understand the insane depths of God's capacity to forgive. Then you will find there is no more room in your heart to hate. All your heart will be filled with love.

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I think you have more of the attitude toward sin that I have been talking about than you realize. It is exactly that realization of our own sin that makes the Grace and Mercy of God so much more precious! The more we realize that we are helpless sinners the more amazing God's Love for us is.

It is our militant attitude toward sin (beginning with our own) that drives us to proclaim the Gospel of God's Grace to lost and dying people.

Those that lashed out at that man were acting in their own fleshly emotions. You acted in the power of God according to His Grace. But your message is that Christ died for sinners. The reality of sin is still present in your message. God's Grace is necessary because of sin.

We reach out with Love to the unbeliever because we know that they need the Savior. They are lost in sin just as we were and we know the joy of being released from that sin by God's Grace. It is because of our stand against sin that we throw out the lifeline of Love to sinners.

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True peace comes from within us through Jesus Christ. Peacemakers are those who have that inner peace that overflows from them into others; they don't worry, they aren't anxious, they aren't frantic. They are like calm streams of water through a dry, parched desert.

Sheep will not drink water that is rushing, crashing, heaving, etc. They will only drink from still, calm water. Unbelievers cannot see Christ in us if they do not see peace within us. They crave that freedom from fear, worry, anxiety, etc. That doesn't mean a Christian can't go to war, but it does mean that an effective Christian has to have that "peace that passes all understanding" - a peace so strong, that even in the worst of times the believer does not lose hope, does not lose faith, but stays strong and believes the promises of God.

When the soul is calm and not distracted by worldy worries, God speaks in marvelous ways.

True peace is more than an inner feeling. If peace were something totally internal, why would Jesus talk so much about us being peacemakers, non-violent, non-resistent to violent people, not retaliating when someone is violent with us, even going so far as to LOVE our enemies.

Peace isn't just an inner feeling or emotion, it is something we are to pursue in our lives, to make real in the world around us. It is the substance of not being all involved in trying to prove something to anyone, it is not found in the absence of war or in the clutching of an emotion, it is a determination to not be the slaves of anger, fear and selfish passions. And when we can do that, we can live and peace and be peacemakers.

Some people seek "peace" so much that they forsake their friends and those in need when the murders and thieves come among them. They say, "Oh, we can't help you, we aren't to do harm to anybody, ever!" And by doing that, they bring harm to a thousand more by allowing evil to run amok.

I certainly don't advocate personal vengeance - that belongs to God. Christ said that we are not to resist those who persecute us for our faith. He didn't say anything about refusing to defend your family or your country in a time of war.

abbygirlforever said:

Some people seek "peace" so much that they forsake their friends and those in need when the murders and thieves come among them. They say, "Oh, we can't help you, we aren't to do harm to anybody, ever!" And by doing that, they bring harm to a thousand more by allowing evil to run amok.

I certainly don't advocate personal vengeance - that belongs to God. Christ said that we are not to resist those who persecute us for our faith. He didn't say anything about refusing to defend your family or your country in a time of war.

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Passivity and pacifism are two different things and you should look up both words so you can know the difference.

lambslove said:

Passivity and pacifism are two different things and you should look up both words so you can know the difference.

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I do know the difference, tyvm. The two do often intertwine, though.

abbygirlforever said:

I do know the difference, tyvm. The two do often intertwine, though.

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Oh? Like when?

A lot of times (but by all means not always), a person who follows one follows the other. A person against war might also choose not to resist when attacked, for example. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

abbygirlforever said:

A person against war might also choose not to resist when attacked, for example. I'm speaking in generalities, of course.

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Neither of those is passivity. A person who is opposed to war hates violence and is following Jesus's commandments to turn the other cheek and to love their enemies. It takes a lot more courage to NOT retalliate with violence than it does to attack your attacker. Even animals will attack their attacker. But Jesus, who had every right to strike down all who opposed him or hurt him, did nothing but show them love. Shouldn't we be like Jesus?

Look, lambslove, I've gotten into this arguement before, and I'm not going to do it again. I'm tired of banging my head against that wall.

abbygirlforever said:

Look, lambslove, I've gotten into this arguement before, and I'm not going to do it again. I'm tired of banging my head against that wall.

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No one is arguing. Just do what Jesus did and you can't go wrong!

Debating, then.