payment for our sins???

Catherineanne said:

Please do not put words into my mouth. I described the Incarnation, and God's perspective on it, from the point of view of the Unequal Exchange. I did not say that Our Lord had nothing to do with sin, only that from this viewpoint it is not central to the Incarnation, or the reason for his life and death.

The parallel is with our own children. If our relationship is about us constantly looking at what they do wrong, and correcting them, with threats of punishment if they fail to achieve our version of perfection, it will be highly dysfunctional, and probably abusive too. What our children do wrong is the least important part of our relationship with them. What matters is who they are, and who we are; and mostly who we are as parents is enablers to them becoming all that they have the potential to be; allowing them to grow and mature into wonderful adults. And, with the Unequal Exchange, our relationship with God is exactly this; he says 'I am who I am', and he wants us to learn to say the same thing.

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Sorry, I didnt mean to put words into your mouth, I jus thought that is what you ment.

KCDAD said:

For Catherineanne: Thank you for clarifying your point, except you have stirred another question in me: If "I am who I am" is what we are to be able to announce, what is the deal with sin, and crime and deviance.... "I'm a drug dealer", "I'm a bully", "I am a sex addict"... are you saying that all God wants is for us to be what we are?

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Look at what I said.

OK. I agree. But... What Are We?
Dust?
Children of God?
A little less than angels?
Animals?
Sinners?

Also, would you address the point of the story Jesus told about the sheep and the goats? Matthew 25: 34
Why are some welcomed into the kingdom and others rejected?
What did the "Good" Samaritan believe (with his heart, mind, soul and strength)? Luke 10: 25-37

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I suspect my answering these would get us both warned against going off topic. Hop on over to WWMC, and ask again.

solarwave said:

Sorry, I didnt mean to put words into your mouth, I jus thought that is what you ment.

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That is ok. It is very easy to read what we think is there, rather than the actual words.

Grega said:

See, most of us live in a civilised society where we have evolved beyond a literal requirement for judgement to be meted out via the 'eye for an eye' method, so I ask 2 questions:

1) How does God sending a human variant of himself (Jesus is God isn't he??) to be killed on a cross 2000 years ago in anyway reconcile the sins(?) I or others may commit given that in general we (certainly I) would find the extermination of life (certainly via crucifixion) to be highly primitive, unjustified, and disjoint from any practical/beneficial alternatives with respect paying for sins?

God sending a version of himself does more then just wash our sins away. It was an act of love. The reason it reconciles our sins is because he was taking our place... think of it as him taking our sentence for what we did wrong. He literally went to Hell and paid the price so we wouldn't have to God sacrificed himself to show his love for us. Then he rose again to prove that he was God.




It should be noted that this question is asked by one who does not accept (so far) the proposition that God's actions (if such an entity exists) are (or even should be) perfect and so I would ask that you avoid this kind of response...more I'm asking you to 'sell' this concept to a disinterested buyer! (so to speak)

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It dosn't matter if you believe or not... he is perfect and he did this so we would have knowledge and know who he is... If you were right, we have nothing to lose.... if your wrong then you have everything to lose... People don't die for no reason.. Jesus knew what he was doing and he wouldn't have if there was another way. That's why in the garden before Judas betrayed him he was sweating blood and weeping- He didn't want to do it... but he did as an act of love. He wants you and loves you. The fact is he wanted to give people free will. That's why he had to do this. He loves his creations but wanted what he created to love him back. God did this so that people would know who he is and that he's love. If you don't believe that then im sorry. The fact is that I can't make you "BUY" anything because only God can unblind you. The fact is that you wont find anything because like you said your "disinterested" you will never find anything feel anything see or feel anything unless you honestly want to give God a shot.

People's logic blocks them from being able to just accept that some questions just are left unanswered. God does things his way weather you liike it or not weather you believe or not and the only way for some non believers to believe is when it's to late.

I don't mean to hurt anyones feelings or step on anyones toes but I must say what the spirit wants me too for God is good.

Golden_Cross If you were right, we have nothing to lose.... if your wrong then you have everything to lose...

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No. Pascal's wager is incorrect. If YOU are wrong, YOU have everything to lose. You will have wasted your life looking up into the sky for meaning and answers... hoping for some "other" chance to live after death. You belittle life by promising some hereafter.

People don't die for no reason..

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What a horrible lie. You couldn't possibly mean this. No one is so naive to think there is meaning or purpose in the death of 20,000 of starvation every day, another thousand from violent crimes and who knows how many from neglect, despair and suicide.

Jesus knew what he was doing

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If he did he wouldn't have asked for the cup to be removed...

and he wouldn't have if there was another way. That's why in the garden before Judas betrayed him he was sweating blood and weeping- He didn't want to do it...

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He didn't want to? God didn't want to?

but he did as an act of love. He wants you and loves you. The fact is he wanted to give people free will.

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How sad to think that God relied on The Roman Empire to execute his will to save all of mankind. What if Pilate had listened to his wife? God's plan for the world would have been foiled and then what?

http://www.starvation.net/