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Calminian

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You actually believe the O.T. writers understood the concept of orbiting or even the concept of a solar system? All they knew was that the heavenly bodies moved around the earth and they were right. They do from our point of reference. But they had absolutely no opinions at all about inertia, gravity and centrifugal force. They didn't even know what they were.


Notice Vance slowly backing off prior statements. Now geocentrism is the literal reading.


I don't believe you came to the conclusion that the flood was local based solely on the text. Even Augustine believed in a global flood. In fact even those early fathers like Clement who spiritualized everything even didn't come to that conclusion. Believe me if it were possible they would have. Either you are the only person in history to read a local flood from scripture alone or naturalistic theories tempted you to look at the text differently.

Vance said:
Again, I will say it again, since you seem to want to ignore it. I have no naturalistic assumptions which override the supernatural.

I'm not ignoring it I just don't believe it. On what basis from the text alone did you come to the conclusion the flood was local?


So do those who reject a literal resurrection. Why should they not be considered brothers in Christ?
 
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Vance

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You don't believe me, even though I have consistently told you over and over? That means you say I am lying.

Well, I can assure you, I am not lying. I have provided all the reasons, and the processes that I went through to conclude that Genesis was meant to be read figuratively before I had read the science critically and while I still assumed the earth was young. This did not convince me that the earth was OLD, or that the flood was local, etc. It just convinced me that the Bible does not really say anything on these details one way or the other. It tells the stories about what happened in a way that leaves it open to a wide number of time frames and events. So, then I looked to the evidence itself to determine what happened historically and physically.

The flood was based on the same analysis as Genesis 1 and 2. It just doesn't read like literal history from the perspective of one who has read ancient literature and studied history (and obtained a degree in ancient history). If you gave me a text of the same type from some other source and asked me whether I thought it was meant to be read literally or as a figurative story, or as a figurative version of a real event, I would say the latter. Have you seen the chiastic structure of that story?

And, since nothing about Scripture, Christian theology or doctrines itself, IMO, requires me to read it literally (or even suggests that I should start with strictly literal as some type of default), I simply take the text on its merits and determine how it was most likely meant to be read. Strict literal history runs way back in the running on this one.

The evidence from nature itself that it is virtually impossible (no, literally impossible) for a global flood to have occurred within human times, was simply a confirmation to me that my analysis of the text itself was correct.

Now, on the geocentrism issue, you are right, they saw what they saw. But if you asked them flat out whether the sun revolves around the earth or the other way around, using two rocks as models, they would have said without hestiation, that the earth is what stands still and the sun that moves. Do you doubt this at all?

And, no, I am not changing my position. All along I have said the same thing: The Scripture does not teach that geocentrism is required, but it is written from a geocentric perspective by people who believed in a geocentric solar system. And that is true. If I believed that Scripture was meant to be read as describing the events scientifically (as the geocentists do in this instance and you do in Genesis 1), then I would have to conclude that Scripture is describing a geocentric structure. But since I don't feel the need to follow the "plain reading" (since I think there often isn't one), and since I don't think that the story is meant to be read as describing things scientifically, I believe, as I have said, that Scripture does not teach geocentrism.

As for those who deny a literal resurrection, you mentioned above those who reject the miracles of the Bible. That is a bit different, since that would mean they were rejecting the resurrection purely on "naturalistic" bases. But, regardless, I think they are wrong because they come to an incorrect conclusion, just as you think the geocentrics come to the wrong conclusion. The difference is whether a disbelief in the literal resurrection is a denial of an essential of Christian belief. What do you think on that point?
 
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Calminian

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You are always so vague on this point and I can't figure out why. Why not just tell us the difference between the two narratives? Explain why those who consistently reject both Adams are wrong in allegorizing the account of the resurrection. This should be very simple to do if what you say is true.
 
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