Paul Washer - What does he mean when he said?....

Ben Collyer said:

watch the video starting at 4:50 and ending at 6:10

Basically he says that if the thought of the cross does not move you then your heart is dead and you know not God.

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

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Preaching like Washer's makes me sick. Ugh! Stop listening to these kinds of preachers.

Ben Collyer said:

so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

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What gives him the right to say??? You did!

We live in a free country so I suppose he has the right to say whatever he wants, but for you to give him the power to:

Ben Collyer said:

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

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That is a you problem... not a him problem.

Paul already told in Galatians 1:8 - even if an angel from heaven comes down with all of its splendor and bright lights - if its teaching a different doctrine... ignore it.

Jesus told us when we take communion that "as often as we do it - do it in remembrance of me" of his sacrifice. So as often as I take communion I am thinking of the cross and Jesus' sacrifice, but it is not constantly on my mind.

You shouldn't have taken any position on that sermon unless he presented Bible for his argument. His opinion is just as good as anyone else's, but Bible speaks for itself.

Hello friend, I hope you'll find some reassurance concerning your troubles

Don't fret and be overly worried about this. Feelings go up and down all the time, and ought not be used as an indicator of whether you are saved or not. It is what you think and do that matters more, the feelings come later. They are transient, and as you grow in the faith, you will find the Cross becoming realer and more precious to you. That's my experience. I felt great love for the Lord yesterday whilst reading the Gospel of Matthew, for instance, and today, less. It is how you feel on average that matters, and that average will grow if you walk well.

You don't run this race alone, Christ is at your right hand. Trust Him, because He saved you, bought you with His blood, and is able to not only make you stand, but to furnish you unto every good work.

I would also suggest you follow Paul's admonition to, "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known unto God." (Phil. 4:6)

Your Master is Christ, therefore you ought to ask for Him to guide you as you look through things and seek advice. I personally don't think an unsaved man would worry like you are worrying - clearly you believe the Gospel!

Keep it simple, man. You must remember that God actively desires your salvation, and approach Him with this in mind. God doesn't say, "Think of the cross and feel so and so", He has commanded other things.. simpler things! God is, according to His Word, Merciful, agreeable, reasonable, moderate, gentle, loving, slow to anger.. and desirous that men should be righteous.

Finally, "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
(Romans 10:13)
So do it! And then ask Him to keep you safe, as well.

I hope I was of a little help to you.

Our feelings can deceive us, therefore we shouldn't use them to gauge our salvation.

A good verse that no one has mentioned yet is Jeremiah 17:9 which says, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Remember, we are justified by faith(Romans 5:1) and not by feelings. Gong through a "dry" season actually gives you an opportunity to strengthen your faith.

Here is a good article on the topic: Feeling spiritually dry | carm

Ben Collyer said:

watch the video starting at 4:50 and ending at 6:10

Basically he says that if the thought of the cross does not move you then your heart is dead and you know not God.

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

Click to expand...

Ummm, yeah ... I don't remember the part in the Bible that says you have to be gooey and tearful over the cross or you don't know God.

I wouldn't sweat it. He died on the cross so we wouldn't have to. That's a thing to inspire joy, not tears. And I would readily challenge that preacher to provide scriptural evidence for this illegitimate stumbling block.

Ben Collyer said:

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

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If this is true, than what was your assurance based in?

Ben Collyer said:

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

Click to expand...

Paul was not referring to momentary struggles with sin. He is referring to a lifelong pattern of apathy, a false religion. If it bring conviction on you, then repent and look again to Jesus.

People that are not born again or at least being called by God usually do not worry regarding these types of matters.

Consider it a good sign.

Nothing wrong with the Bible tells us to examine ourselves very important.

M-Bob

Ben Collyer said:

watch the video starting at 4:50 and ending at 6:10

Basically he says that if the thought of the cross does not move you then your heart is dead and you know not God.

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

Click to expand...

I would say all Christians can be apathetic about the cross at times when we are not considering the full extent of it. But when you think about what Jesus went through to pay the price for us that should move you. I think it is partly that we hear about the cross all the time so become a bit dulled to the reality of it.

Jesus knew what was coming when he prayed at the Garden of Gethsemany. Luke 22:44 says his sweat was like blood. This is a known medical phenomena in people in fear of death caused by blood capillaries dilating and bursting with the increased blood pressure from the stress. He was beaten, tormented, whipped, mocked, abused physically and mentally to the point of this description Isaiah 52:14. And after they finished doing that they made Him carry the very thing that was going to be used to kill Him through the streets with His battered body. He was then crucified which was a horrific thing, not the relatively nice depiction we get in churches. The Romans were experts in making it excruciatingly painful. They dislocated the shoulders and hung the person on the cross in such a way that it was difficult and painful to support your weight at all.

And He did it all to pay the price for our sin out of love for us. If that doesnt move you I'm surprised. I dont know of the preacher you mentioned and I havent listened to it, but i would say if you arent moved by the Cross that maybe it would be an idea to pray and ask God for a revelation for the fullness of the Cross. I mean this as a way of encouraging you to go deeper into the truth of the Cross, but also read 1 Corinthians 11:17-34, I have been particularly challenged by verses 29- 30 in recent weeks after God put in on my heart to have greater discernment of the body of Christ that was given for us. Christians tend to focus on the resurrection but I am finding a lot of powerful stuff in looking at the body Christ that was given over to death.

Ben Collyer said:

watch the video starting at 4:50 and ending at 6:10

Basically he says that if the thought of the cross does not move you then your heart is dead and you know not God.

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

Click to expand...

I think Paul Washer ministers condemnation more than he realizes.
We cannot command emotions to respond when we wish.

A mother loves her child even when she's exhausted and doesn't feel like cuddling or talking sweet to it.
We may love God even when we don't feel like it.
The way we know a mother loves her child is by watching how she acts when the child needs her.
And the way we know we love God is not by watching how our emotions react, but by how we act in response to His call. Do we get up and move His direction? Do we immediately pull ourselves out of bed, to answer the call of God, like that mother does, when her sick child calls her for the 20th time that night?

Read I Corinthian 13:4-8. True love is not measured by emotions. Instead, love is measured by actions, regardless of feelings.

And when we act out of loving commitment to God, the feelings will come.
Just like anyone can learn to love a child (or a spouse) by acting like they love them.
Feelings follow actions. It's a principle of life.

This means... I need to get up in time to worship and read the Bible before going to work. Whether I feel like it or not.
I need to get myself to church every time I am able to go, on time, whether I feel like it or not.
I need to make myself act like I love God, even when the feelings aren't there.
Because those habits create a lifestyle that makes me fall in love with God.

Ben Collyer said:

watch the video starting at 4:50 and ending at 6:10

Basically he says that if the thought of the cross does not move you then your heart is dead and you know not God.

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

Click to expand...

It's much, much more simple and basic than that. Do you think it was a fantastic thing for Jesus to have done for you, bearing in mind he'd have undergone all that for you, alone, even if there was no-one else. Do you not think that if you'd actually been there, and witnessed all his agony and suffering from close up, you would have felt gutted for him And no, none of us may assume we are saved. Or rather, yes, we must assume that, but not take it for granted, and think it's 'already in the bag', because cannot know that. The proof is in the pudding, but you've got to cook it for God to eat, showing to him that you are one of the children of light.

ADMIN HAT ON


Thread cleaned. One more time, respond only to the OP.


ADMIN HAT OFF

"Move" doesn't only mean move emotionally, does it?

Have you ever been moved by the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross at one point OP?

It wouldn't be normal for anyone to break down every time they see a crucifix. A Christian should retain a deep, conscionable reverence for the ultimate act of self-sacrifice fulfilled through Jesus.

If not, read more about His sacrifice and all of the things it accomplished.

Ben Collyer said:

watch the video starting at 4:50 and ending at 6:10

Basically he says that if the thought of the cross does not move you then your heart is dead and you know not God.

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

Click to expand...

Paul Washer has zero authority to destroy Faith. Continue to stand tall in the Faith our Lord provides.

Do not let your faith in Jesus Christ as Lord waiver. There will be many who will call upon the name of Jesus in the final days. Many will deceive those of hardened hearts and many with hardened hearts will enjoy and revel in their deception, knowing full well that they deny the truth. Listen to the Holy Spirit and you will know the truth. No man can take your joy of salvation unless you willingly give it to them.

Paul washer is not the issue
What he says about the cross of Christ is the issue........
No one can be saved without Jesus death burial and reaurecftion .....
Look at the theif on the cross. He has probably zero theology ....
But he did cry out to God through His son and He was saved....
So yes. At times we need to renew our first love......
Paul said in My I die daily.....
Meaning daily repentance and daily reexamination.......

Only Believe! Your salvation is not based on how you feel, but on your faith in His word that says:
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Ben Collyer said:

watch the video starting at 4:50 and ending at 6:10

Basically he says that if the thought of the cross does not move you then your heart is dead and you know not God.

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

because sometimes I DO feel apathetic towards the cross, I dont weep with gratitude everytime I think about it, In fact I rarely think about the cross. so what gives washer the right to say im not saved if I dont feel this and this or that and that?

Click to expand...

First of all not only have I been through this sort of thing, I've actually sought it out. Hearing some of this kind of preaching I was convinced the I can't fulfill the requirements. This is not meant to a sermon, an exhortation, a confrontation, certainly not a boast. The reason I choose Christ is because God himself convinced me. I was witnessed to by a Christian one night, the gospel was even then familiar to me but still seemed an unreachable place I didn't think I could get to but still was willing to hear him out. That night in private I prayed, 'God if this is real your going to have to take me as I am and make me what you want me to be'. It was like he reached out and grabbed me and said, you got it'. I was stunned and shook it off. That was my first encounter with God's grace but over the years justification by grace through faith has been the foundational doctrine of my faith.

He says here, 'at conversion, you don't become righteous', that it's like a legal verdict. That's only partly true, but at conversion you are given the new nature, the new man, that grace that saves you apart from works is what purifies the sinner and makes them saints.

I fully realize that as simple as the Gospel is it can be elusive. God alone can give you the insight into the person and work of Christ, God alone can dispense grace or withhold it. Your assurance of faith does not come from Washer and if he can separate you from it, it's not the full assurance of faith to begin with. Believing the gospel apart from the power of the Holy Spirit is not difficult, it is impossible.

The cross puzzles me, I've often wondered, why this? The Incarnation made no sense to me, why would God have to do that? You really have to take a step back and stop thinking about what you have to do, think or believe. The first thing you must understand and be convinced of is that God is righteous and you are not. The second thing is, the one who makes the promise is faithful.

What Washer is preaching is right, even if he isn't teaching it all that well, it's gospel. I've heard a number of older preachers give messages as their lives and ministries are in the twilight years. Invariably they are going to emphasis prayer and their relationship with God through Christ. If you had to preach to a room full of preachers you will not like the reaction if you preach on doctrine, theology or do an in depth exposition. What you would want to talk to them about is your prayer diary or the things God has done in your life.

With God laying siege to your sinful condition and we are all in that condition, you can not sue for peace, you must unconditionally surrender or God will lay you waste. That's not a bad thing, you should never be distressed about it but we all go through our own dark night of the soul where we struggle with doubt and despise ourselves for our in ability to walk in a manner worthy of our calling.

I don't know what you should pray in this circumstance, how you can convince yourself of the power of the cross or receive the full assurance of faith. What I can tell you from personal experience is that if you will submit to God's grace there is nothing God won't do to save you.

The good news here is that you realize you can't do this, believe this, it's all just too much. When your at this point, and may I remind you we all go through it. Your never closer to the grace of God. When Babylon was laying siege against Jerusalem the prophet pleaded with them to just surrender, the judgment of God was at the gate and they could not win. They looked at the Temple but God had already departed, there was no help left there for them, it was too late for that. I know it's difficult, I know it's too hard, I know all too well how it feels to accept I can't.

My advice, not really knowing that much about you, just surrender. The prayer of faith says God have mercy on me a sinner and surrender yourself to the mercy of God. Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace.


A good working definition for grace is 'unmerited favor', Paul worked in the ministry field by grace alone and he is crystal clear on this point. The merits of Christian ministry are Christ's alone we can add nothing. James in speaking to believers who were obviously showing favoritism was simply telling them that this is not how saving faith works. He was outraged that a wealthy Christian could teach a poor Christian as inferior when they themselves apart from Christ are poor, pitiful, blind and naked.

I hope that helps a little.

Grace and peace,
Mark

I certainly understand the depth of my sin and greatest of His love when considering the Cross but it's not just the Cross but the Cross and an empty tomb! I rejoice because He has risen and lives in me. To spend my life downcast over the Cross and why Jesus died on it is not what Christianity is about. The crucifixion is an accomplished fact but remember He said , "It is finished." I chose to live in the joy and freedom of the newness of life as the Resurrected Lord lives His life in and through me.

Ben Collyer said:

Washer has just destroyed my assurance of salvation, and therefore my joy, and therefore made me useless and fruitless as a christian

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Why do you allow Paul Washer to have so much power over you?