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Paul vs. James: Faith/Works interpretations discussion!

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JMRE5150

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Ok, gonna start this thread to liven things up a bit around here...

Clearly most of us (Protestants) believe in Grace through Faith alone. After all, Paul writes:

Romans 3
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Now, we have what James wrote:

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.


Ok, now I am aware of the most popular stance on this, which can be paraphrased something like this:
"We believe in faith through grace, inwhich the Holy Spirit will naturally produce great works through a man. But the works are not a requirement for salvation." - footnote * I also believe that works do NOT grant salvation *

The discussion I want to get into is whether or not we have two writers on two different levels of godly thinking, in which case did man's doctrine adjust these seemingly different views into one (see my paraphrase above) to compensate?
Or Did one of these writers get it wrong? (This would be an unacceptable thing to those who believe the Bible is God-breathed and infallible)
And of course, the last 'option' is that man's wisdom which may have been inspired by God has deciphered the true meaning of both verses into the rough paraphrase I've listed above...

While I'm sure this thread will invoke people faithful to their denom's doctrines, I'm hoping for a more personal touch and response to these questions. I do not want this to get into the typical "Faith/Works agruments or debates"!!! ;)

DISCUSS!!!


Robb
 

JOE8585

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this is the way that i see it. We are saved by faith, because Paul says in Hebrews 11 that it is "IMPOSSIBLE" to please God without faith. so we have to have faith inorder to please God and thus be saved. However i don't think that there is a contradiction in what Paul was saying and what James said.

James is just defining the type of faith that we are to have. A faith without works is dead. Some people take this to extremes and say that it is the works that produce this faith, when this is not what the bible or james is saying. basically he is saying that if you have faith, then you will feed the hunger, you will clothe the naked, you will uplift the hurting, you will give to the poor, you will etc. etc.

if you have this faith, your works will be evident, not the other way around. so i don't see any contradictions, James is just defining and adding to the idea that paul first wrote.
 
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InquisitorKind

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JMRE5150 said:
Ok, gonna start this thread to liven things up a bit around here...
This was discussed in PRE a few months ago:

http://www.christianforums.com/t84815

Now, we have what James wrote:

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
The Greek behind the phrase "You see" allows for the idea of "you physically see that." This means there are at least two possibilities regarding what James 2:24 says, not just the one--"You see" equating to a remark of conclusion of a thought--that is usually assumed in these types of discussions.

Now that the possibility of James speaking about justification before people has been established, the rest of the evidence can be taken into account (James 2:14, 2:18, etc.). It's clear that James is relating two types of faith with the difference between the two being works being manifested or not. There is nothing in the context of James 2:24 that suggests works are needed for justification. In fact, if James was advocating justification through works and faith, and understood the sinfulness of human beings, he would believe it to be impossible for man to be justified through faith and works (James 2:10).

~Matt
 
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BBAS 64

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JMRE5150 said:
Ok, gonna start this thread to liven things up a bit around here...

Clearly most of us (Protestants) believe in Grace through Faith alone. After all, Paul writes:

Romans 3
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Now, we have what James wrote:

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.


Ok, now I am aware of the most popular stance on this, which can be paraphrased something like this:
"We believe in faith through grace, inwhich the Holy Spirit will naturally produce great works through a man. But the works are not a requirement for salvation." - footnote * I also believe that works do NOT grant salvation *

The discussion I want to get into is whether or not we have two writers on two different levels of godly thinking, in which case did man's doctrine adjust these seemingly different views into one (see my paraphrase above) to compensate?
Or Did one of these writers get it wrong? (This would be an unacceptable thing to those who believe the Bible is God-breathed and infallible)
And of course, the last 'option' is that man's wisdom which may have been inspired by God has deciphered the true meaning of both verses into the rough paraphrase I've listed above...

While I'm sure this thread will invoke people faithful to their denom's doctrines, I'm hoping for a more personal touch and response to these questions. I do not want this to get into the typical "Faith/Works agruments or debates"!!! ;)

DISCUSS!!!


Robb

Good Day, Robb

The James 2 verse with out the context is very very deceiving IMHO. James says "YOU SEE THAT" the Greek for "you see' is based on what you observe "you see"

So we can say "we see" the works and observe that justification is based on what he "does" because that is what "you see".

Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


Verse 26 is where the "rub" is Faith, with out works faith is dead the cause of our works is our faith that God has given to his children. Faith you can not abstractly "see" but works you can and do "see".


You see ??^_^

For his glory alone!:clap:

Bill
 
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Hoonbaba

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Here's my opinion (feel free to disagree):

Faith isn't mere intellectualism.

Romans 3:28 is a reference to works of the law, not works of righteousness. Rom 3:27 tells us this:

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Rom 3:27 KJV)

Gal 2:16 follows the same line of thought. So I believe that we are saved by grace (Eph 2:8), but when apostle Paul mentions that we're not saved through works (Eph 2:9), he's referring to works of the law. Because in verse 10 it says that we are created in Christ to do good works (Eph 2:10). He would be contradicting himself if he was referring to the same works, so I think it's clear that he's saying 'no works of the law' can save. Rom 3:27-28 appear to parallel this line of thought.

So I think a distinction has to be made between works of the law, and works of righteousness. The works of righteousness is through holy spirit's ministry (2 Cor 3:8-9). In fact 2 Cor 3 is about the letter of the law and the holy spirit.

So when it says faith without works is dead. James isn't referring to the works of the law, rather works of righteousness which is the result of the Holy Spirit's work. The fruits of the spirit comes to mind (Gal 5:22). No visible fruit may suggest, no faith.

Hope this makes sense....

With that I just thought I'd share these passages:

"...The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Gal 5:6)

"...let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth" (1 John 3:18)

God bless!

-Jason
 
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Bulldog

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Robb

The James 2 verse with out the context is very very deceiving IMHO. James says "YOU SEE THAT" the Greek for "you see' is based on what you observe "you see"


Hello Bill,

Would you happen to the Greek word is tha is used in that is translated as "you see that"?
 
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BBAS 64

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Bulldog said:
Hello Bill,

Would you happen to the Greek word is tha is used in that is translated as "you see that"?
Good Day, Bulldog

Hope you r well,

βλέπω

blepō

blep'-o

A primary verb; to look at (literally or figuratively): - behold, beware, lie, look (on, to), perceive, regard, see, sight, take heed. Compare G3700.

Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?



When I get home I can get you the Youngs literal translation for verse 22 if you would like?

Peace to u,

Bill
 
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joevberry3

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JOE8585 said:
this is the way that i see it. We are saved by faith, because Paul says in Hebrews 11 that it is "IMPOSSIBLE" to please God without faith. so we have to have faith inorder to please God and thus be saved. However i don't think that there is a contradiction in what Paul was saying and what James said.

James is just defining the type of faith that we are to have. A faith without works is dead. Some people take this to extremes and say that it is the works that produce this faith, when this is not what the bible or james is saying. basically he is saying that if you have faith, then you will feed the hunger, you will clothe the naked, you will uplift the hurting, you will give to the poor, you will etc. etc.

if you have this faith, your works will be evident, not the other way around. so i don't see any contradictions, James is just defining and adding to the idea that paul first wrote.
Great Post Brother! I agree 100%!!

Joe
 
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Protoevangel

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BBAS 64 said:
When I get home I can get you the Youngs literal translation for verse 22 if you would like?
I know you don't need it Bulldog, but most translations are in easy reach of anyone on the internet. http://www.biblegateway.com

James 2:22 (YLT)
dost thou see that the faith was working with his works, and out of the works the faith was perfected?

http://www.biblegateway.com
 
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de Unamuno

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Hoonbaba said:
Here's my opinion (feel free to disagree):

...

So when it says faith without works is dead. James isn't referring to the works of the law, rather works of righteousness which is the result of the Holy Spirit's work. The fruits of the spirit comes to mind (Gal 5:22). No visible fruit may suggest, no faith.

Hope this makes sense....

Nice post, Jason. To me, it is most certainly a matter of distinguishing between works of law and good works (works of righteousness). The former is now defunct with the work of Jesus on the Cross, and the latter is now a necessary manifestation of our cooperation with the Lord's grace.

In Him,
 
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BBAS 64

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de Unamuno said:
Nice post, Jason. To me, it is most certainly a matter of distinguishing between works of law and good works (works of righteousness). The former is now defunct with the work of Jesus on the Cross, and the latter is now a necessary manifestation of our cooperation with the Lord's grace.

In Him,
Good Day, Unamuno

Clement of Rome:
"And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness." (32-33)

Would you be so kind as to help me understand these (works of righteousness) and what are the instrumental cause of these works if not out of a holy heart as Clement disreguards.

"necessary manifestation of our cooperation"

Could you explain the necessity of such works. By what means do you offer any cooperation and the worth God assings to such cooperation on your part?


Peace to u,

Bill
 
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Lotar

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I have some quotes on the relationship of the Law and Gospel that you might like:

The righteousness of law is set forth in the statement that he who keeps the law will live in it, so that by recognizing his weakness one may attain to it, keep it, and live in it. He reconciles the justifier [God] by faith, not by his own strength nor by the letter of that same law, for this is impossible. Only in a justified man is there a good work by the performance of which he can live. Justification is obtained by faith. ... By the law we fear God, by faith we hope in God. But to those who fear punishment grace is hidden; laboring under this fear, the soul by faith flees to the mercy of God, that he may give what he commands. (Augustine of Hippo, The Spirit and the Letter 29:51; quoted in Apology IV:106, p. 122)

But the world was subjected to him [God] through the law; for by the commandment of the law all are accused and by the works of the law none is justified, that is, by the law sin is recognized but its guilt is not relieved. The law would seem to be harmful since it has made all men sinners, but when the Lord Jesus came he forgave all men the sin that none could escape and by shedding his blood canceled the bond that stood against us (Col. 2:14). This is what Paul says, “Law came in to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Rom. 5:20) through Jesus. For after the whole world was subjected, he took away the sin of the whole world, as John testified when he said (John 1:29), “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” So let no one glory in his works since no one is justified by his deeds. But he who is righteous has it as a gift because he was justified after being washed. It is faith therefore that frees men through the blood of Christ; for “blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered” (Ps. 32:1). (Ambrose of Milan, Epistle to Irenaeus; quoted in Apology IV:103, pp. 121-22)

We should believe both that we should be penitent and that we shall be pardoned, in such a way that we hope for pardon from faith just as faith obtains it from the written agreement. (Ambrose of Milan, On Penitence Against the Novatians II:9; quoted in Apology XII:96, p. 196)


1. The law is the doctrine that commands what is and what is not to be done.
2. The gospel is the promise of the grace of God. 3. The law demands impossible things such as the love of God and our neighbor. 4. Those who try to keep the law by their natural powers or free will simulate only the external works; they do not give expression to those attitudes which the law demands. 5. Therefore, they do not satisfy the law, but they are hypocrites, "whitewashed tombs," as Christ calls them in Matt 23:27. Gal 3:10 says: "For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse. 6. Therefore, it is not the function of the law to justify. 7. But the proper function of the law is to reveal sin and especially to confound the conscience. Rom 3:20: "Through the law comes knowledge of sin." 8. To a conscience acknowledging sin and confounded by the law, the gospel reveals Christ. 9. Thus John reveals Christ at the very time he preaches repentance: "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). 10. The faith by which we belive the gospel showing us Christ and by which Christ is received as the one who has placated the Father and through whom grace is given, this faith is our righteousness. John 1:12: "But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become Children of God." 11. If it is actually faith alone that justifies, there is clearly no regard for our merits or our works , bot only for the merits of Christ. 12. This faith calms and gladdens the heart. Rom 5:1: "Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace." 13. The result of faith is that for such a great blessing, the forgiveness of sins because of Christ, we love God in return. Therefore, love for God is a fruit of faith. 14. This same faith causes us to be ashamed of having offended such a kind and generous father. 15. Therefore, it cause us to abhor our flesh with its evil desires. 16. Human reason neither fears God nor believes him, but is utterly ignorant of him and despises him. We know this from Ps. 14:1: "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Luke 16:31 "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead." Here Christ points out that the human heartdoes not believe the word of God. This madness of the human heart is what Solomon railed at in the whole book of Ecclesiastes as can be seen from ch. 8:11: "Because sentence agains an evil deed is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set to do evil." 17. Because the human heart is utterly ignorant of God, it turns aside to its own counsels and desires, and sets itself up in the place of God. 18. When God confounds the human heart through the law with a sense of sin, it does not yet know God, that is, it does not know his goodness and therefore hates him as if he were a tormentor. 19. When God comforts and consoles the human heart through the gospel by showing it Christ, then finally it knows God, for it recognizes both his power and his goodness. This is what Jer 9:24 means: "But let him who glories glory in this, that...he knows me." 20. The heart of him who has believed the gospel and come to know the goodness of God is now fortified so that it trusts in God and fears him and consequently abhors the thoughts of the human heart. 21. Peter said very fittingly in Acts 15:9 that hearts are cleansed by faith. 22. Mercy is revealed through the promises. 23. Sometimes material things are promised, and at other times spiritual. 24. In the law, material things such as the Land of Canaan, the Kingdom, etc. are promised. 25. The gospel is the promise of grace or the forgiveness of sins through Christ.
26. All material promises are dependent on the promise of Christ.
27. For the first promise was a promise of grace or Christ. It is found in Gen 3:15: "He shall bruise your head." This means that the seed of Eve will crush the kingdom of the serpent plotting agains our heel, that is Christ will crush sin and death. 28. This was renewed in the promise made to Abraham: "By your decendants shall all the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen. 22:18). 29. Therefore, since Christ was to be born of the descendants of Abraham, the promises added to the law about the possession of the earth, etc. were obscure promises of the Christ who was to come. For those material things were promised to the people until the promised seed should be born, lest they perish and in order that in the meantime God might indicate his mercy by material things and might thereby exercise the faith of his people. 30. By Christ's birth the promises to mankind were consumated, and the forgiveness of sins, for which Christ had to be born, was openly made known. 31. The promises of the Old Testament are signs of the Christ to come and also of the promise of grace to be broadcast at some future time. The gospel, the very promise of grace, has already been made known. 32. Just as that man does not know God who knows only that he exists but does not know either his power or his mercy, so also that man does not believe who believes only that God exists but does not believe both in his power and his mercy. 33. He really believes, therefore, who, looking beyond the threats, believes the gospel also, who fixes his face on the mercy of God or on Christ, the pledge of divine mercy.
So much on faith; we shall add certain things on love a little later after we have dealt with the difference between the law and gospel.

-Philip Melanchthon
 
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theseed

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Unlike others, I offer a simple explanation.

Paul says no one is justified in earning salvation, while James says no one is justified in claiming to have faith. Hence, Paul speaks of salvation, James does not.

Justified in James would be better translated as "vindicated" or "validated"
 
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de Unamuno

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BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Unamuno

Good day :)

Would you be so kind as to help me understand these (works of righteousness) and what are the instrumental cause of these works if not out of a holy heart as Clement disreguards.

My apologies. Without knowing the source (Clement of Rome?) or the context of the quote, I can't comment on his statement. However, for my own statements....

Works of righteousness, or good works, are a result of our freely willed cooperation with God's grace, which is bestowed upon us through the death of Christ. God's undeserved gift of grace is the instrumental cause, and the divine source, of both our faith and our works, both of which will be present as the truest sign of salvation in the regenerated man.

"necessary manifestation of our cooperation"

Could you explain the necessity of such works. By what means do you offer any cooperation and the worth God assings to such cooperation on your part?

Works are necessary for "living" faith, that "faith without works is dead". God created us not just to love Him but "to love one another, as I have loved you". Love is, by its nature, an act. It is a work of will, through God's grace, and it is manifested in outward signs of courage, compassion and charity towards our brothers, sisters and fallen/broken humanity.

I offer my cooperation with His grace through a free act of submission to God's will. God moves through me, with me, and to this cooperative act (which grace alone enables) he assigns the worth of his kingdom.

Peace to u,

Bill

And also to you,

-jerrod
 
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Hoonbaba

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Unlike theseed, I have a different interpretation of James and Paul (for obvious reasons). But I'll try to explain from a Calvinist perspective:

The works we do is due to the Holy Spirit. It's not a sort of earning of one's salvation.

Unlike the concept of 'Blessed Assurance', Calvinists (regardless of whether anyone agrees or not) teaches that all of God's elect WILL do God's will:

John 10:27 - My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me

In other words, those who follow Christ will do whatever Christ desires. Of course they'll screw up along the way, but for the most part, they will confess their sins, continually return their hearts to God, and live the christian life doing the things that Christ commanded.

Thus, in my view mere intellectual belief in Christ doesn't really cut it. What matters to me is faith expressing itself through love (Gal 5:6), because a lack of this would make one wonder if the person has Christ living in them in the first place.

But, as for who the elect are, I've no idea.

Hope this makes sense.

-Jason
 
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InquisitorKind

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Hoonbaba said:
So I think a distinction has to be made between works of the law, and works of righteousness.
You repeatedly make this distinction throughout your post but give no Scriptural basis for taking such a course of action. Since it is the crux of your argument, why did you spend so little time defending it? Works of the law included such concepts as obeying God (Deuteronomy 6:5) and loving neighbors as yourself (Leviticus 19:34). Why would "works of righteousness" be distinguished from works of the law? Why would any works be excluded at all?

~Matt
 
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