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The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience.
Thank you, Der Alter for an intelligent reply. Yes, I know that there are problems with some of the Hebrew origins of Matthew. However that doesn't change the points of what I was saying. If you want to look towards more reliable sources we can do that. Eusebius of Caesarea (260-340 CE), Archbishop under Constantine, tells us in his Ecclesiastical History that James was "the lord's brother, who had been elected by the Apostles to the episcopal throne at Jerusalem," (E.H. 2.23).
Josephus, also knows this when he says in his Lives of Illustrious Men ch. 2 that "He [James] alone enjoyed the privilege of entering the Holy of Holies, since, indeed, he did not wear woolen, but only linen clothes, and went into the Temple alone and prayed on behalf of the people, so that his knees were reputed to have acquired the callousness of a camel's knees", and that after Jesus died he "was immediately appointed Bishop of Jerusalem by the Apostles." According to him (Josephus), when the Roman Governor died in 62 CE -and the new one was still on his way to Judaea- Establishment High Priest Ananus ben Ananus used the occasion to illegally try and execute Jesus' brother James, because of his role as supreme leader of the Jesus Movement:
"[H]e assembled the Sanhedrin [the 'Supreme Court'] of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some of his companions. And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the Law, he delivered them to be stoned. But those citizens who seemed the most equitable and THE MOST CAREFUL IN THE OBSERVATION OF THE LAW were offended by this," (Antiquities of the Jews 20.1).Two generations later, a more legendary account is recorded by Hegesippus, but with the note that James "proved a true witness to Jews and Gentiles alike that Jesus is the Christ," (E.H. 2.23). All of this and more can be found at false apostle Paul website. Why the emphasis on James? Because as noted above we see that Ananus ben Ananus tried to execute James. This must be the same Ananus that Paul refers to in his conversion experience.
Lord, Ananias answered, I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.
But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.
Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, Brother Saul, the LordJesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming herehas sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Immediately, something like scales fell from Sauls eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Acts 9:1319, NIV
But look in Acts 5:3: "`Ananias,' Peter asked, `why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?'"
Der Alter,
You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.
Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved. Ephesians;
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[a]—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
Paul then goes on to say,
15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body[a] through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.[c] 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually[d] into a dwelling place for God.
Now compare this to, John 15: 10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Or Matthew 19,
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Der Alter,
You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.
Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved. Ephesians;
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[a]—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
Paul then goes on to say,
15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body[a] through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.[c] 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually[d] into a dwelling place for God.
Now compare this to, John 15: 10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Or Matthew 19,
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
<staff edit>
Also I would like it if you would reply to my post on 17 May 12;19 AM
Thank you,
charliemc
Paul's salvation formula says NOTHING about repentance, so was he even saved? Apparently not.
If Paul had known about repentance, surely he would have included it in his salvation formula at Rom 10:9 and Eph 2:8-9. However he didn't, which is odd.
For any evangelist worth his salt, the last thing they do is forget the need for repentance. They usually relate their testimony so many times, including the life-changing effect of repentance, that they can virtually do it in their sleep. Their testimony becomes the very last thing they forget.
But because Paul gave us three different versions of his so-called 'salvation experience', none of which say anything about repentance, it's obvious that he didn't realise how central it is. He appears to have said whatever came to mind at the time, probably thinking that near enough is good enough.
Have you ever met an evangelist who didn't jump at every opportunity to urge people to repent? Yet on all three occasions, all Paul really talked about was himself.
These are not the signs of someone who's saved.
Philippians 3 said:Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
You miss the message.
Paul taught the "quickening" of the spirit. (look up quickening). Jesus taught the exact same thing. Both are speaking spirit, and you are comparing physical things. Paul is speaking as a person who never met Jesus as the disciples did, but through the Holy Spirit (as we do). The Jews wanted a sign, and Jesus gave it to them. The Greeks wanted knowledge and Paul gave it to them.
Der Alter,
You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.
Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved. Ephesians;
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us 5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ[a]—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
Paul then goes on to say,
15 He has abolished the law with its commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new humanity in place of the two, thus making peace, 16 and might reconcile both groups to God in one body[a] through the cross, thus putting to death that hostility through it. 17 So he came and proclaimed peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; 18 for through him both of us have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone.[c] 21 In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built together spiritually[d] into a dwelling place for God.
Now compare this to, John 15: 10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Or Matthew 19,
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
<staff edit>
Also I would like it if you would reply to my post on 17 May 12;19 AM
Thank you,
charliemc
Der Alter and Phantasman,
Neither of you have a clue as to what is being taught. John 6
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Yahushua is teaching that it is His Word that is from where the quickening comes from. In other words, His Torah! Which requires study and application to grow in and to understand.
Paul is teaching that this quickening can come to the Gentiles by the magical formula of professing Christ Jesus and, from believing that He died on the cross.
Eph. 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (a word that has a similar meaning to quickening) by the blood of Christ.
So Paul is misrepresenting the Words of Yahushua! No mention of Yahushua's Word, no mention of Torah, no mention of study just a magical process that has no worth. He even goes on to say that it comes without works lest any man boast. This coming from a man who constantly is boasting of his own great works! I think the correct word is hypocrite.
Phantasman also said something about the Greeks were seeking knowledge. The only knowledge that Paul is giving them here is Masonic beliefs.
Eph. 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God. (the Masonic Temple)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles (Are these the apostles that Paul had no part in? What could he possibly say about the apostles?) and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; "The aspirant for masonic light--the Neophyte--on his first entrance within our sacred porch, prepares himself for this consecrated labor of erecting within his own bosom a fit dwelling-place for the Divine Spirit, and thus commences the noble work by becoming himself the corner-stone on which this spiritual edifice is to be erected." From the Symbolism of Freemasonry.
You never proved any where that Paul repented. All you did was to show that he preached repentance to the Gentiles. But true repentance requires action to make up for the misdeed. If one hates their neighbor and repents of this. He should go to the neighbor and confess his hatred and do good deeds to this man to make up for his sin. Again faith without works is dead. Finally since we are looking at the Ephesians perhaps a look at Rev. 2 might be in order.
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Just who do you think Yahushua is speaking about? I don't know anyone who claimed to be an apostle and wasn't except Paul!
Der Alter said:, Wrong! Nigh does not have a similar meaning to quickening. ζωοποιέω/zoopoieo translated quicken means to make alive. ἐγγύς/eggus translated nigh, means near.
<staff edit>! syzōopoieō "to make one alive together"
eggys
1 near, of place and position
2 near
3 those who are near access to God
4 Jews, as opposed to those who are alien from God and his blessings
5 The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte" If a proselyte isn't connected "together" with his teach then what is he?
DA said:I have never heard such total nonsense! The masons did not exist in the 1st century. Was Isaiah also a mason?
Yes, he was look at the next verse. They didn't call them masons and they weren't evil. They were the Shepard Kings and they spoke truth. Isaiah is speaking to the worshipers of Baal that live in Jerusalem like Paul. An he is speaking of the End of the world.
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Paul was appointed apostle by Jesus Christ Himself to fill the office vacated by Judas.
Jesusmartyr said:
Wait, I thought Matthias filled the office vacated by Judas?
Acts 1:15-26
New International Version (NIV)
15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, Brothers and sisters,[a] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.
18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
20 For, said Peter, it is written in the Book of Psalms:
May his place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in it,
and,
May another take his place of leadership.[c]
21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us, 22 beginning from Johns baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.
23 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, Lord, you know everyones heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs. 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
That wasn't Jesus appointing Matthias as a replacement obviously. Their protocol wasn't the plan that Jesus had in store.
Paul was the replacement that Jesus chose. Not what "other apostles" chose.
What??? The man never stopped boasting! And when he wasn't boasting, he was running down the apostles appointed by Jesus!Paul was appointed apostle by Jesus Christ Himself to fill the office vacated by Judas.
In his humbleness he stated he was the least of the apostles.
Given the abundance of evidence which shows he was a liar and a hypocrite, I am appalled that anyone would try to convince someone else that he was an apostle.I am appalled that anyone would attempt to convince someone else that Paul wasn't an apostle.
Hi Charlie,Der Alter,
You really haven't answered TorahMan's response. The point he was making is that Paul himself never repented when he had his so called conversion experience. Sure he can tell others to repent. But what does that show or mean? Nothing, just because he tells others to do it doesn't mean he did it. In America we have a saying, That's the pot calling the kettle black. Since the pot is black just like the kettle it shows hypocrisy. Telling others what to do when the person hasn't done it themselves. Or pointing out the fault of others when they themselves have the same faults.
Further if you look closer to what TorahMan said you will see that he was pointing to what Paul says one must do to be saved.
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