• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

paul becke

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,012
814
84
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟227,714.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour

Are you really so unfamiliar with St Paul's epistles that you don't recall that he said it was impossible to keep the Law? He didn't say the Law was rubbish. He said we cannot always keep it. And here you are setting yourself above the Mexican saint who lied to save lives, and on another occasion to say Mass. And I'm sure they would all have done so without hesitation. CIRCUMSTANCES CAN PRESENT A DILEMMA OF HAVING TO CHOOOSE BETWEEN TWO CASES OF THE LETTER OF THE LAW. Fortunately when the choice is between the letter and the spirit of the law, the choice for a Christian is entirely notional. The spirit of compassion is the one law for which all the others subsist.

I find it totally incredible that you should make an idol of the letter of the law after Christ's incandescent fury at those who did it in his own day. And in the examples he gave, it was only an ox in a ditch or some such, rescued on the Sabbath. And making a distinction between deception and a lie is a breath-takingly shallow quibble. Fraud is a deception, and there is a law against it.
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟105,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married

No need to be so emotional, friend. Your arguments are not with me, but with Doctors of Christ's Church. I understand how hard these things can be to work out. We know that we will not live our lives without sin, but that is not cause to aim for the bullseye.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,497
11,193
✟220,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Do you agree with everything that has been said by the Doctors of the Church?
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟105,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Do you agree with everything that has been said by the Doctors of the Church?

Lol, here you are, asking me questions when you refuse to answer mine. What a lark, yes?! Regardless - I aim to agree with what has been proclaimed by Doctors of the Church except when they are directly contradicted by higher authority - like in Humanae Vitae which contradicted so many of St Augustine's thoughts on marital sexual relations. To answer your question directly, I submit to the teaching of said Doctors (to say I agree suggests I am on their level -I am not) unless those teachings have been specifically superceded.
 
Upvote 0

paul becke

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,012
814
84
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟227,714.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour

I can see you are incorrigible. You'll have an interesting conversation on Judgment Day, as you explain to the Lord that his strictures about the whole of the law and the prophets being subordinated to his requirement that we show practical love to our neighbours in their need. Christ is not about religion. He is about love. (And no, you can't call down fire on people who tell lies to save lives).

Jesus, himself, remarked on your lack of a sense of proportion, when he stated that the scribes and the Pharisees strained at a gnat, only for them then to swallow a camel. You need to understand that everything the Church has taught down the centuries is not Gospel. Now, there is a word for you to embrace: 'Gospel'.

I was furious because I don't have the time to argue the obvious with a grown man, least of all in the early hours of the morning. If you will not heed the words of Scripture, indeed, Christ's own words, it was very foolish of me to think you would be persuaded by anything or anyone on the subject. And I dare say the knowledge that I was wasting my breath/energy as well as my time, didn't please me any.

Do you really think those scribes and Pharisees didn't speak in the same reverential tones about their own doctors of law as being the supreme arbiters in matters of faith? Remember, they only sat in the chair of Moses, and were not always the most faithful custodians and interpreters of it.

A small detail - which doctor or doctors of the Church stated that under no possible circumstances, could a Christian feel authorised to tell a lie? Not even to a murderous villain, in order to save the life of another person? It would, of course, remain a formal sin, but that is of no relevance in the context, whatsoever.

I suspect that, as a very successful person (seemingly a lawyer and perhaps a member of Opus Dei), you would keep pretty bad company for the most part, quite unwittingly, and there might be a really decent soul underneath the confusion, if you could only be kept in a 'Christian correction facility', such as CF for long enough. I hope you persevere.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,142
11,356
✟822,519.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
A small detail - which doctor or doctors of the Church stated that under no possible circumstances, could a Christian feel authorised to tell a lie? Not even to a murderous villain, in order to save the life of another person?

St. Augustine the Enchiridion Chapter 22. He states we can never lie even to save a life. He says the good intention may be praised and the sin pardoned but we can never maintain that the action is laudable.

"But every lie must be called a sin, because not only when a man knows the truth, but even when, as a man may be, he is mistaken and deceived, it is his duty to say what he thinks in his heart, whether it be true, or whether he only think it to be true. But every liar says the opposite of what he thinks in his heart, with purpose to deceive. Now it is Ê evident that speech was given to man, not that men might therewith deceive one another, but that one man might make known his thoughts to another. To use speech, then, for the purpose of deception, and not for its appointed end, is a sin. Nor are we to suppose that there is any lie that is not a sin, because it is sometimes possible, by telling a lie, to do service to another. For it is possible to do this by theft also, as when we steal from a rich man who never feels the loss, to give to a poor man who is sensibly benefited by what he gets. And the same can be said of adultery also, when, for instance, some woman appears likely to die of love unless we consent to her wishes, while if she lived she might purify herself by repentance; but yet no one will assert that on this account such an adultery is not a sin. And if we justly place so high a value upon chastity, what offense have we taken at truth, that, while no prospect of advantage to another will lead us to violate the former by adultery, we should be ready to violate the latter by lying?

It cannot be denied that they have attained a very high standard of goodness who never lie except to save a man from injury; but in the case of men who have reached this standard, it is not the deceit, but their good intention, that is justly praised, and sometimes even rewarded. It is quite enough that the deception should be pardoned, without its being made an object of laudation, especially among the heirs of the new covenant, to whom it is said: "Let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." And it is on account of this evil, which never ceases to creep in while we retain this mortal vesture, that the co-heirs of Christ themselves say, "Forgive us our debts."

Now. I do not agree with Augustine and think Church teaching gives other options that in some cases it is not even a lie if the person is not owed the truth. But I have covered that in other posts:





For my part to save a life, against an illegitimate authority and immoral act, I would lie and trust to the mercy of God. It would be, as a sinner, the least of my offenses.

Remember Mike is not saying he would let the life be lost. Just that it would still be a lie.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,497
11,193
✟220,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Lol, here you are, asking me questions when you refuse to answer mine.
I don't know what question you are referring to. But I do know that there have been times when I asked you a question, and you refused to answer it. For example, I remember asking something like, "where did you get that statistic from?" and your response was that I should look it up for myself.
Regardless - I aim to agree with what has been proclaimed by Doctors of the Church except when they are directly contradicted by higher authority
I haven't found the actual quote yet to verify it, but I've seen some say that St. John Chrysostom (a Doctor of the Church) had a different opinion than St. Augustine and Aquinas on the question of if it is ever permissible to lie to save the life of others. Here is one of the places that claims this about St. John Chrysostom:
"Some religious leaders did not agree with the absolutist view on falsehoods. St. John Chrysostom believed that lying in order to benefit others is permitted. Cassian and Origen felt that sometimes lies are necessary but they should be used the way we use medicine, something we do with distaste but out of necessity (Catholic Encyclopedia)."

(Source)​
There was an interesting debate on this topic (here).

By the way, I would like to know what the EO position is on this.


Edit:

St. John Chrysostom's, "On the Priesthood" seems to apply to this topic.

Also, I found this very informative book on this topic (see p.44-49):
The Casuist: A Collection of Cases in Moral and Pastoral Theology, Volume 3
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gwendolyn

back in black
Jan 28, 2005
12,340
1,647
Canada
✟20,680.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
See David's posts for some helpful insight into the debate. I don't understand why David's posts seem to be being ignored. David has been very informative and clear.

It's okay to say you disagree with St Augustine and St Thomas Aquinas, because, like I've said a few times, the issue of whether or not a lie can be permissible under certain circumstances is still debated. But it isn't charitable to say that others are wrong for agreeing with the Doctors on this issue. This isn't a "believe the Doctors in everything or nothing" situation at all. For example, I have no problem saying that I disagree with Augustine that sex is only for procreation.

By the way, I would like to know what the EO position is on this.

The EO are proportionalists in their approach to morality. Their moral conclusions are usually based on a cost/benefit analysis and they do believe that it can be moral to do something normally sinful if it causes a perceived good outcome (see: their thoughts on barrier method birth control). Completely different from the Catholic approach.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,497
11,193
✟220,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I haven't outright said that the other side is "wrong." But I will say that I think they are mistaken. I do, however, realize that this is something which the Church has not set in stone one way or the other.

The way that I look at it is I know of two examples in Scripture that appear to be exactly like the Nazi scenario, the Hebrew midwives (Exodus 1) and Rahab (Joshua 2; Hebrews 11:31; James 2:25), and Scripture says that the Hebrew midwives and Rahab were blessed for the decision they made.

Also, even if lying in this case would be a sin, I'm sure that it would not be a mortal one. So if it is a venial sin to lie to the Nazis about having Jews hidden (which Scripture seems to say that it isn't a sin) it seems more reasonable to choose the venial sin to prevent a mortal sin from happening rather than trying to avoid a venial sin while allowing a mortal sin to take place.

Lastly, the "mental reservation" argument seems like a weak one to me. The Nazis aren't stupid. So beating around the bush would be the same as telling them that the Jews are hiding in your house. And an attempt at trying to mislead but not technically lie is still an attempt at deception.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,169
22,759
US
✟1,735,631.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

I have three problems with Augustine's argument.

1. "To do good" is inherently and ethically a different proposition from "to prevent evil." We can take this to the Just War standard: Going to war "to do good" is ethically a different proposition from going to war "to prevent evil."

2. To lie in prevention of an evil act is not at all the same as stealing to enable a beneficial act. To steal is to deprive one man of what is already in his possession and belongs to him. The truth I may have is not in the possession of the evil man and does not belong to him.

3. A woman may "seem" to be about to die for lack of love, but Augustine of all people knows that love and sex are not the same thing. I can surely show the woman love without having sex with her.

That leaves him without an argument.
 
Upvote 0

paul becke

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2003
4,012
814
84
Edinburgh, Scotland.
✟227,714.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Politics
UK-Labour
But that was never the issue. Of couse it was a lie. As I said in my previous post when I realised people were confusing the issue. The controversy was never over the fact that a lie, however well-intentioned, remained a lie, and as such a sin.

There is, indeed, a very simple and clear distinction between the culpability in God's eyes of a formal sin and one that was committed to prevent a far greater ill. The reason why Jesus spoke in absolutes and even said that we were to be perfect, even as our Heavenly Father is perfect, was because he knows what inveterate backsliders we are; and if he set the target low, we'd even miss that. With his grace, we can really please him by trying hard to be perfect. But that does not mean being unrealistic, because legalistic and Pelagian, when confronted the kind of moral situation under discussion; or telling a 'white lie' to a young child, to spare it needless grief. Admittedly there is counterfeit love that is more a matter of cheap popularity, but the principle is nevertheless clear enough.

The very phrase, 'white lie' suggests that mankind finds it a very simple issue, and would be baffled by the way we are making a federal case out of it. AS Christ said and reiterated, EVERYTHING, i.e. the law and the prophets, the whole of theology, patristics, you name it, was aimed at love and the knowledge of God; which is a virtual tautology.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Mar 30, 2008
591
206
✟21,624.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
"The EO are proportionalists in their approach to morality. Their moral conclusions are usually based on a cost/benefit analysis and they do believe that it can be moral to do something normally sinful if it causes a perceived good outcome (see: their thoughts on barrier method birth control). Completely different from the Catholic approach."
__________________


Your statement is a Blanket Statement. All the moral problems in the Catholic Church are the same in the EO church. Sin is sin. Their approach to moral problems, as you call them, is not as you claim. Their approach is an holistic approach. Repentance, forgiveness, and healing. A hospital for the sick.

I hope I am not representing the Orthodox wrongly when I say this. As I said, Orthodox believe that sin is sin. I can give you an example using the "Just war theory". There is no "Just War theory" in EO. They believe that all war is evil. Although sometimes a necessary evil. As one EO priest said, "Orthodox Christians do indeed undertake warfare in such situations, but purely as a “necessary evil.” It is necessary because the innocent and good must be protected; it is evil because such protection involves the taking of human life, which by all accounts, is among the most terrible of crimes." Yes, even for a "just" cause, they believe anyone who takes a life, is in need of repentance, forgiveness, and healing, but that war is necessary to protect the innocent and good.

So, while I haven't found anything specifically related to lying to save the life of an innocent person, it could be that based on the example I provided, that they would apply this to lying to protect an innocent person who is in danger of their life. A sin in need of repentance, but necessary to protect the innocent. This is life in a fallen world.

LWU, you might want to ask this on TAW.
 
Upvote 0

classicalhero

Junior Member
Jun 9, 2013
1,631
399
Perth,Western Australia
✟18,838.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Liberals
Really the whole del should boil down wha Jesus said was the whole law, that is to love God with you whole being and to love your neighbour as yourself. So if telling lie means loving your neighbour, then you are doing what the law asks us to do, but if telling a lie means you are not loving your neighbour, then you are not fulfilling the law.
 
Upvote 0

Irenaeus

Sub tuum praesidium confugimus!
May 16, 2004
6,576
518
USA
✟25,968.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Although sometimes a necessary evil. As one EO priest said, "Orthodox Christians do indeed undertake warfare in such situations, but purely as a “necessary evil.”

If any sin is made necessary, it is also robbed of moral culpability, because if a person or a group of people lacks the capability to resist moral evil, they then do not incur responsibility for rectifying the situation.

Say for instance a person with schizophrenia, or some form of brain pathology. I suppose you could say in some way their actions are 'necessary' in the sense that they cannot control themselves, but if we follow that line of thought, that would also mean that they are absolved from responsibility from their behavior.

So I'm not in favor of this line of reasoning. Although Eastern thought tends toward the synthetic and not the analytic, and that is a legitimate way of approaching matters, I think here a lack of distinction is not good.

People joke that "Ex Oriente Lux, Ex Occidente Lex" - out of the East, Light, out of the West, Law, as if to say we Latins/Romans are far more concerned with legal frameworks for morality. There may be merit to this criticism, but then again, consider all the accomplishments and advances we have made as a result of this point of view. The East has made different accomplishments.

In my opinion, this is not a matter of accepting one and rejecting the other. Both have things to learn from the other if the Church is to, in the words of St. Pope John Paul II, "Breathe with both lungs," accepting the wisdom of all the traditions and theological frameworks within her.
 
Upvote 0
Mar 30, 2008
591
206
✟21,624.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single

I don't understand the point you are making and maybe you don't understand mine.

If you read the thread, you would see that there was some heated discussion between Catholics and a Jewish poster as to whether it was a sin to outright lie to save an innocent's person life. Someone wondered what the EO's position would be.

A poster on here replied that the "The EO are proportionalists in their approach to morality. Their moral conclusions are usually based on a cost/benefit analysis and they do believe that it can be moral to do something normally sinful if it causes a perceived good outcome (see: their thoughts on barrier method birth control). Completely different from the Catholic approach."

I am not EO, but I strongly believe that this was a clear misrepresentation, that the poster made, possibly based on misunderstanding, that I wanted to address. All wrapped up in one single issue-contraception.

My intent was to give an example to show the flaw in her statement. While Catholics have a Doctrine that some wars are just, EO believe that war is never just. It's always wrong, it's always sinful, it is always evil, but it is sometimes "necessary" to protect the innocent and "evil" because it always involves the taking of a human life.

I don't know how that statement is taking away "moral culpability" as you say. In fact, the same could be said, if not more so, of the Just War Doctrine of the Catholic Church.

I find a lot of knee jerk reaction whenever anyone on OBOB brings up something relating to Eastern Orthodox, sometimes to the point of arrogance and superiority, mostly out of ignorance.

I directed one poster to ask his question on TAW. I would hope you and the poster I responded to would also take your misunderstandings to TAW for greater clarity and understanding, as I am not EO.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,497
11,193
✟220,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I directed one poster to ask his question on TAW. I would hope you and the poster I responded to would also take your misunderstandings to TAW for greater clarity and understanding, as I am not EO.
I agree with St. John Chrysostom on the question of whether it is ever permissible to lie to someone.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Irenaeus

Sub tuum praesidium confugimus!
May 16, 2004
6,576
518
USA
✟25,968.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
seekingfreedom,

Thank you for taking the time to clarify.


My point is simply this: the example you are using I believe is flawed. Catholic Moral Teaching makes clear and important distinctions between material/formal cooperation with evil, as well as remote vs proximate cooperation.

There is another principle, which is ancient, that God never commands impossibilities. There is also another principle that if a sinful action cannot be resisted due to some sort of "necessity" which cannot be counteracted, then guilt is removed.

For instance, if a person with a mental disability constantly lies, or blasphemes, or is compulsively addicted to sexual behaviors, then we would rightly note that their culpability is diminished or completely eliminated, because they cannot choose the good due to some physical or psychosomatic necessity/compulsion.

My chagrin is had with the phrase "necessary evil."

In any case, Just War theory is Catholic teaching, and it does not use the idea of "necessary evil," but acknowledges rightly that all killing is not wrong, that there are some kinds which may be moral due to the circumstance, e.g., self-defense. Just War is a collectivization of this fundamental moral intuition.
 
Upvote 0

LivingWordUnity

Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic
May 10, 2007
24,497
11,193
✟220,786.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Though Augustine didn't comment on it, I wonder if the fact that it was blessed made it ok. It was after the fact in the text, but it would go back to the idea that if it is sanctioned by the Holy One, it is considered moral regardless of the act.
There is that. By extension of principal, no reasonable person would conclude that tying their child to a rock and threatening to kill him is acceptable behavior that will prove to God how much you love him.
Except that God did not allow Abraham to go through with killing Isaac. It was only a test. And we learned later that its purpose was to foreshadow what the Father in Heaven was going to do with His only begotten Son. So it's not an equal comparison to God blessing Rahab and the Egyptian midwives since God did not tell them to lie nor did He prevent them from lying. But God blessed them for the choice they made since they did it with the righteous intention to save innocent lives from someone evil.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
42,169
22,759
US
✟1,735,631.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

What still makes no theological sense to me is that there can be a circumstance in which the wholesale slaughter of human lives can be considered moral but if in the exact same circumstance the slaughter could be avoided by a well-timed lie, the lie to avoid the slaughter would be immoral.
 
Upvote 0