Paul From A Messianic Perspective: Greastest or False Apostle?

[AnthonyForChrist]

We have seen that Paul's picture of God's sovereignty doesn't exist in the Scriptures. We might call this the DNA evidence against him (Doctrine Not Accurate). It is an important part of the case against him. But it is by no means all the evidence there is against his supposed authority. There is more than enough evidence to suggest that he was not even a true apostle of Yeshua let alone the greatest apostle who ever lived as he is so often eulogized.

There are a number of historical facts, quotations from Paul, and quotations from Yeshua recorded in the New Testament that leave us with some quite compelling evidence against his apostleship being recognized in heaven.

There are several interesting facts surrounding this case that should be noted and kept in mind. They are:

1. His apostleship was unrecognized by others.

Of the 22 times in the New Testament where Paul is referred to as an apostle, only twice is he referred to as an apostle by someone other than himself. These two instances came from the same person. Not from Yeshua or any of the original apostles, but from Paul's close traveling companion and personal press secretary Luke. Both accounts are found in Luke's record of the Acts of the Apostles, (chapter 14:4,14). Here Paul is referred to as an apostle along with Barnabas. By this time in the record, Luke would have been very familiar with Paul calling himself an apostle and was no doubt in agreement with Paul's assessment of himself. By these statistics alone, it is evident that Paul is by far his own biggest fan... and his side kick Luke was his number two fan. This leaves no one else anywhere in the Bible going on record as recognizing his apostleship!

2. His focus was uniquely self-ward.

No other epistle writer in the New Testament wrote like Paul. This would be true in several ways, but one facet is of particular interest when we are considering how Paul views himself. It is his usage of personal pronouns that is second to none. In fact, when it comes to how often he uses personal pronouns like, "I", "me", "my", or "mine", his overall average in the epistles that are generally unquestioned as his is almost three times that of his next closest rival in the practice. Many if not most scholars today believe for a number of reasons that Paul did not write the book of Hebrews. One obvious fact is that in the other epistles credited to him Paul doesn't hesitate to identify himself along with his supposed credentials. The author of Hebrews is strangely silent on these matters. To date, the best guess as to who the author of Hebrews is would be Apollos, and it's only a guess. But Paul certainly couldn't be in the running as the author of Hebrews when one also considers the statistics on the personal pronoun usage. The author of Hebrews uses approximately 1.3 personal pronouns per thousand words of text. Paul's average comes in at about 18.2 per thousand! That is a 1300% increase.

To help put this in perspective, in the first half of the first chapter of Romans, (16 verses worth), Paul uses twice as many personal pronouns than the author of Hebrews uses in his entire book. It's easy to see that Paul is at least as concerned about communicating what believes to be the truth about himself, along with what he considers to be the truth about God.

3. His claim of apostleship stands alone.

Other than the twelve apostles who spent three and a half years with Yeshua, no one other than Paul can be identified as having claimed for themselves the title of apostle of Yeshua. Barnabas was referred to as an apostle along with Paul by Luke in Acts 14:14, but there is no record of Barnabas claiming for himself the title.

Our view of early church is polarized.

When we take a general survey of the New Testament, we notice that Paul is the single greatest contributor to it. When we read the book of Acts, we can't help but get the impression that the great bulk of what God was doing in the early church was happening through Paul. But this tends to be very misleading because the book of Acts was written from only one man's point of view... Luke's. Luke traveled with Paul on his many missionary journeys and the bulk of the book of Acts is the account of those travels. But what was going on in Paul's life was by no means the only thing God was doing with the believers of that time period, nor was it the main event from God's point of view. What we have in Acts is only one man's point of view, and from Luke's perspective, Paul's story would no doubt have appeared to be front and center stage. This could likely be why Luke chose to follow Paul and record his story in the first place. Being a Gentile himself, and Paul the supposed apostle to the Gentiles, this no doubt seemed to be where the future was for Luke. When we consider Paul taught that there is no difference in God’s eyes between Jew and Gentile, but all believers in Yeshua now constitute "the true Israel of God", what Gentile who desired to get close to the God of Israel wouldn’t be absolutely thrilled with Paul? But don't misunderstand my position on the book of Acts. The book of Acts is very important in helping us understand at least a part of what was going on at that time. Without it we wouldn't have much of an idea. What was done and said as recorded by Luke is priceless, and we have no good reason to question what he saw and heard. Luke's own personal commentaries though, few as they are, may be legitimately called into question. But I see no reason to accuse Luke of malicious intent. But we can figure on some Paul-induced ignorance of the truth in Luke. The important thing to remember is that the book of Acts was written from a very singular point of view. It is by no means a record of the only thing God was doing at that time nor should it be assumed from the structure of the book that Paul's journeys where the most important thing God was doing at that time.

No doubt, God was doing other things at that same time. We don't have a detailed record of it, but we do have some clues. Without question, God was working through the original apostles, some things of which are touched on in the beginning of Acts. The apostle John was hard at work for his Lord, but we hear very little from him until we get toward the end of the New Testament. There we find three short epistles and the book of the Revelation of Yeshua that John was commanded to write while in exile on the island of Patmos.

Paul's claims of apostleship

Paul was not at all sheepish about calling himself an apostle. In fact, in nine out of thirteen of his books, he introduces himself as an apostle of Yeshua, and in every case he states in one way or another that his apostleship stands by divine sovereign decree.

Here is the question. Should we automatically believe the testimony of a person who makes grandiose claims about themselves when all we have for confirmation of their claim is little more than their word and maybe a statement or two from their best friend? If so, then we should likewise confirm those like Jim Jones and David Koresh. Unless there is obvious corroborative evidence to support such claims made today and in the past, all of them should be taken with a very large helping of salt. Unlike Paul, a true prophet or apostle does not have to go to such extraordinary lengths to convince the world they are who they say they are. Even Yeshua said that if he alone bore witness of himself, his witness was invalid. John 5:31 And of all the people who shouldn't need to have others testify on their behalf, Yeshua was that person. Yet he had Moses, the prophets, the Psalms, John the Baptist, the Fathers voice from heaven declaring to everyone "this is My beloved Son..." and hundreds of those who witnessed his resurrection just to name a few. Paul had none of these. Though in his conceit he considered himself to be God's gift to the Gentiles and tried to claim a prophecy for himself that was given exclusively to Isaiah in Isaiah 49:6.

"For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you to be a light to the Gentiles that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth." Acts 13:47

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Paul, the greatest apostle!

Paul's view of himself as an apostle didn't stop at just claiming to be an apostle. He did what he could to communicate to his followers that he was the biggest and the best. He even had the nerve to challenge the very apostles Yeshua had called and trained for over three years! Among the many self-admiring quotes are these.

"For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles". ...."As the truth of Christ is in me, no one shall stop me from this boasting in the regions of Achaia." 2Cor. 11:5,10 NKJV

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Sometimes, almost as though he knew he should be ashamed of such claims, he would tie his claim to a statement of unworthiness. Apparently he thought the gullible would embrace him as the greatest of apostles because he was so humble.

"For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all...". 1Cor. 15:9,10 NKJV

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To the Galatians, Paul makes no pretense about how he compares himself to Peter, James, and John:

"But from those who seemed to be something - whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man- for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, ...and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship..." Gal. 2:6,7,9 NKJV

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A couple verses latter Paul takes a cheap shot at Peter. Without Peter around to defend himself, Paul brags to the Galatians how he put Peter in his place before the entire church of Antioch.

"But when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews played the hypocrite with him so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straight forward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "if you being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?" Galatians 2:11-14 NKJV

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[AnthonyForChrist]

Then Paul goes on to describe how hypocritical Peter was being for living a different gospel from the one that he (Paul) preached. It is interesting to note that earlier in the book (Galatians. 1:8,9) Paul commanded his followers to ****, (curse, or doom to destruction), anyone who preaches a different gospel than that which he had preached. According to him then, that would include damning Peter, if not James and John also! It is obvious to the reader of the first two chapters of Galatians, that Paul is demanding that the Galatian church follow no one but him, not even the original apostles back in Jerusalem.

As a side note it should also be noted that Paul himself was being the real hypocrite when he condemned Peter for accommodating Gentiles when he was around Gentiles and acting like a Jew around Jews because in another place Paul said:

"For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win the more; and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law; to those who are without the law as without law... that I might win those who are without law; to the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some." 1Corintians 9:19-22 NKJV

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A little later in the same letter Paul said:

"Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God, just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." 1Corinthians 10:31-33 NKJV

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So here we have Paul claiming to be greater than any other apostle. He insulted Peter, James, and John by saying they only "seemed" to be pillars of the church and they were nothing to him. He bragged about how he told off Peter, and he subtly curses the apostles by telling the Galatians to consider accursed anyone who differs with him. All this, while in fact, he was being the greatest hypocrite of all! If anyone else had even begun to do and say the things that Paul did we would have recognized their incredible conceit and rejected them a long time ago. Solomon said it well;

Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth; A stranger, and not your own lips. Proverbs 27:2

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The book of Revelation

Back when I still thought Paul the greatest apostle, it always puzzled me why God didn't give him the book of Revelation or at least some prophetic book similar to it if indeed he was as great as he appeared to be.

There are some interesting facts about the book of Revelation and some things said by Yeshua himself that would answer the question as to why Paul was not given the "Revelation". There is a good reason why Yeshua did not give such an obviously high endorsement of Paul to the world, but would much rather have himself identified with the beloved apostle John. Actually, there are two reasons for this. First, as mentioned, Paul wasn't even close to being everything he had made himself out to be. And second, Yeshua had prophesied that John's testimony would remain till he returned. (More on this in the chapter, Yeshua’s prophecy concerning Peter) With an endorsement like this, it only stands to reason that John would be given the testimony of the Revelation to record.

The first thing we notice about the book of the Revelation of Yeshua is that it has been given to the beloved apostle John about whom Yeshua had said his testimony would remain till he returned. The second thing that we are forced to deal with is that the Revelation was most likely given to John during the Neronian persecution around 65 A.D.This was about the same time we hear the last from Paul who was in prison in Rome writing his second epistle to Timothy.

Many Scholars (but by no means all of them) believe that the Revelation was written later during the Domitian persecution of A.D.81-96. This theory has its origin in the testimony of the historian Irenaeus who wrote around the year 180 A.D. some 100 years or more after the writing of Revelation. He held Paul in the highest esteem and tried to emulate him. He also was instrumental in pulling together the many splintering factions of Christianity at that time. There is no more reason to reach for a later date than A.D. 65 for Revelation than his say so. It is my belief that he knew well the devastating impact on Paul’s credibility that an early date for Revelation would bring. Wanting union and not division, he settled on the later date in an attempt to give Paul some breathing room. This only helps Paul a little. Even in the unlikely event the Revelation was written later, it continues to reflect badly on Paul as you will see. The other early historians who also render the later date, Victorinus (c. 270), Eusebius (c.328), and Jerome (c. 370) were simply following Irenaeus’ lead.

There is evidence that can be deduced from the book of Revelation itself for accepting an earlier date for it's writing. First, in chapter 11 there is a reference made to the temple. It is obviously an earthly temple. That temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It is hard to imagine that John would have been told to measure the temple of God after it had been leveled.

Also, when one adds up the numerical value of the consonantal letters in the name "N’ron Kahsar", which is the way all Greek speaking people pronounced the name Caesar Nero, the sum totals 666. See appendix. The churches of Asia would no doubt have thought Nero was the beast prophesied of in Revelation even though he was only a type, a sort of preview of things to come in the distant future.

There is also the consideration of the age of John. Being a contemporary of Yeshua, it is safe to assume that he would have been close to the same age as Yeshua. If John had been as much as 10 years younger than Yeshua, he would have been only 20 when Yeshua called him to follow him. It would seem doubtful that Yeshua would have called someone so young, but for the sake of a conservative estimate, if John was only 20 when he was called by Yeshua, he would have been in his late fifties at the youngest in the year 65. If he had been the same age as Yeshua, he would have been in his late sixties. By first century standards, a person in age from late 50s to late 60s was considered a significantly old person. If the book of Revelation was written in the year 95, at the youngest, John would have been in his late 80s. This was virtually unheard of in the first century. If he had been the same age as Yeshua or older, (not at all out of the question), he would have been in his late 90s to over 100 years old. This is highly improbable. As long as one isn’t trying to salvage Paul’s reputation, the earlier date of 65 A.D for the writing of the Revelation, during the Neronian persecution, fits all the data best.

 

[AnthonyForChrist]

The one fact that immediately jumps from the pages of Revelation is that in spite of Paul's supposed popularity, not one word is given from Yeshua in recognition of him or his work among the Gentiles. Of the seven churches to whom the book is originally addressed, as far as we know, only one of them is a church that had any direct dealings with Paul. That church is the church of Ephesus the first on the list of the seven. John records:

"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, "I an the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." Revelation 1:10,11 NKJV

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Yeshua goes on to tell John what to say to each church. The general pattern of the things he said to each church went like this. First he would tell them what they were doing right and commend them for it. Next he would point out to them where they going wrong and reprimand them for it. Then he would exhort them to repent and change what they were doing wrong, or they would suffer the consequences. Then he would give them a promise of reward if they did repent and overcome their problems. Then, (and this is important), toward the end of each and every address to a church, he would speak to the whole world and say that what was true and good for this and all seven churches was good for anybody who cared to listen.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches". NKJV

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The reason that this is important is because there has been some false teaching going around. It holds that along with the obvious fact these letters were written to specific churches in Asia, they were also a parallel prophecy of the churches that would come along in time. The last church then (Laodicea) was supposedly a foreshadowing of the Christian church in general at the end of the age just before Yeshua returned. This has had the effect that we have concerned ourselves with only what was supposedly addressed to us. Today, one can hear all kinds of preaching about the lukewarm church of Laodicea, but one hears very little about what was said to the other six churches. We have been left blinded to six sevenths of the truth available. There is no truth to the parallel theory because the Holy Spirit explicitly repeated seven times that what was good for each and every one of the seven churches was also good for any individual who cared to listen. And much was addressed to those churches by Yeshua that flies directly in the face of Pauline doctrine. More on this later.

Now look at what was said to the only church of the seven that we know Paul had any dealings with, Ephesus. Among the things that Yeshua commended the Ephesian church for doing right, is this quote:

"I know your works, your labor, and your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars." Rev. 2:2 NKJV

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Yes. I believe Yeshua here is referring to Paul and his companions Timothy, and possibly Barnabas, and that his claims of apostleship and his doctrine are false! Consider the facts.

1. Paul's ideas on the sovereignty of God and his subsequent doctrine are groundless and severely flawed. (See previous chapter)

2. We have record of Paul claiming to be an apostle to the Ephesians.

"Paul, an apostle of Yeshua by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus," Ephesians 1:1 NKJV

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3. We have no record of anyone else claiming to be an apostle to anyone anywhere, not even to the Ephesians.

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4. Ephesus is the only church of the seven listed in Revelation, that we have record of Paul claiming to be an apostle to.

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5. Paul and his doctrine had troubles being accepted in Ephesus.

"And he went into the synagogue and spoke boldly for three months, reasoning and persuading concerning the things of the kingdom of God. But when some were hardened and did not believe, but spoke evil of the Way before the multitude, he departed from them..." Acts 19:8,9 NKJV

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Remember that this is recorded from Luke’s point of view and that he believed Paul's doctrine was 'the Way'. Notice that those who rejected Paul are men of the synagogue and not atheists or pagans. If these men had stood up in front of the synagogue and said, "Paul's doctrine is flawed. He is a false apostle, and a liar"; Luke would no doubt have seen this as "speaking evil of the Way".

If these five reasons are not enough to seriously call into question Paul's status as an apostle there is one more. It is a most interesting quote from Paul's own pen that finally seals the fate of his supposed apostleship. It comes from his second letter to Timothy, which was also written during the same Neronian persecution in which John was given the Revelation. This letter is believed by many scholars to contain the last recorded words of Paul. Here he makes a short statement of lament that seems to have gone unnoticed. The implications of which are astounding if one is able to hear everything that is being said. Paul says to Timothy:

"This you know, that all those in Asia have turned away from me." 2Timothy 1:15
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Asia! All of them! Rejecting Paul! And when he says, "This you know", it sounds like this must have been relatively common knowledge at that time. Asia! The very place that Yeshua told John to write, where his seven churches were! And they were alive, and obviously had been established for some time. Again, notice that Paul did not say that Asia had rejected Yeshua. Obviously they hadn't rejected Yeshua if there were thriving churches there that Yeshua wanted to address through John. Instead Paul said that all Asia had rejected him personally!

Let me reiterate this picture again and try to grasp the profound significance of it. Here we have in the book of Revelation the words of Yeshua commending the Ephesian church for rejecting someone who claimed to be his apostle. While Paul, the only person anywhere (other than the twelve original apostles) at that time to have gone on record claiming to be an apostle, we know has made this very claim to this same Ephesian church. At the same time, Paul laments himself of the fact that he has been rejected by them! How could it NOT be Paul and his associates that Yeshua had commended the Ephesian church for rejecting? It really couldn't' be more simple. Here, one more time, is the equation in its simplest form.

Paul to the Ephesians: "I am an apostle of Yeshua"
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The Ephesians to Paul: "No you're not."
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Yeshua to the Ephesians: "Well done!"
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This by itself, should be more than enough reason to raise serious question about Paul. Then, when we add to this the rest of the evidence against him and his doctrine, (more to come) we have more than enough reason to do as the Ephesian church and convict Paul of the crime of false impersonation of an apostle!

If Yeshua’s evaluation of Paul was that Paul was a false apostle and a liar, consider the following.

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"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches
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[AnthonyForChrist]

Sorry, but there's more!

want to point out my "doctrine" first though for backround. I see Torah as the
whole story, and the rest of Prophecy as magnification of Torah, giving us
more details to the story. The book of Samuel is prophecy concerning today. I
see the characters as "acting out" prophecy to magnify Torah. Samuel is
Yahshua, Eli is John the Baptist, the Philistines are the Philistines, those
who plugged up Abraham's wells with dust which represent erroneous doctrine
(bad leavening), Saul is Paul, David is us, the beloveds.
The question is why was a Benyamite the first King? Is this also
magnification of Torah? When Yosef was in Mitzraim providing seed for the
Gentiles, just as Yahshua is doing now, Benyamin was being set as leader of
Israel by Yacov. When the Israelites realized that Yosef was alive, Yosef was
placed where He belonged, as Head of the Tribes of Israel. How does Yahudah
fit in? Well Yahudah had learned from his experience with Tamar about what it
felt like to loose a son. He had the right heart, repentant, and obedient to
his father Yacov. He had learned from what had happened to Reuben, Simeon,
and Levi and would not make the same mistakes they made. He would accept his
fathers choice of leader and the smart brothers were those who followed
Yahudah. Benyamin was not a strong leader and pretty much let his brothers do
what they wanted out of fear, just as Saul:

1Sam. 15:24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have
transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because I FEARED THE
PEOPLE, and obeyed THEIR VOICE.

We are the Davids, the Beloveds:

2Sam. 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD
God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I DELIVERED THEE OUT OF
THE HAND OF SAUL/SHEOL;

Line of Benyamin, brother of Yosef.

I've put these thoughts together to get people to open up their minds to
other possibilities than the traditional line or "teachings of the Fathers".
I try to base my thoughts on Torah and build from there. Read at your own
discretion.

Jer. 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day
of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth,
and shall say, SURELY OUR FATHERS HAVE INHERITED LIES, vanity, and things
wherein there is no profit.

Amos 2:4 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Judah, and for
four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they have despised
the law of the LORD, and have not kept his commandments, AND THEIR LIES
CAUSED THEM TO ERR, AFTER THE WHICH THEIR FATHERS HAVE WALKED:

Starting in Genesis, the foundation, we will follow some of the significant
decendants of Benyamin. You may see a pattern. Let us start with Benyamin
himself. He was the only Israelite who did not take part in selling Yosef
into slavery. Not only that, all 12 of the Israelites were named by their
mothers. Notice Benyamin is the only one with 2 names:
Gen. 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she
died) that she called his name Ben-oni: but his father called him Benjamin.

According to Youngs Concordance Ben-oni means child of sorrow, whereas
Ben-jamin means "son of my right". Quite a contrast, no? Right off the bat we
have dual meaning and purpose. Not only that, it was Yacov who named him and N
OT his mother as with ALL the other Israelites. How did Yosef say he was
going to "prove" His brothers?
Gen. 42:15 HEREBY YE SHALL BE PROVED: By the life of Pharaoh ye shall not
go forth hence, except your youngest brother come hither. 16 Send one of
you, and let him fetch your brother, and ye shall be kept in prison, that
your words may be PROVED, whether there be any truth in you: or else by the
life of Pharaoh surely ye are spies.

Are the decendants of Benyamin used to "prove" us to this day? What does the
blessing of Jacob say:
Gen. 49:27 "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; In the morning he DEVOURS THE
PREY, And in the evening he DIVIDES THE SPOIL.

Notice how the next significanct Benyamite uses deception to bring about
good:
Judg. 3:15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD
raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man
lefthanded ("shut of his right hand" literally): and by him the children of
Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab. 16 But Ehud made him a
dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his
raiment upon his right thigh. 17 And he brought the present unto Eglon
king of Moab: and Eglon was a very fat man. 18 And when he had made an end
to offer the present, he sent away the people that bare the present. 19
But he himself turned again from the quarries that were by Gilgal, and said,
I have a secret errand unto thee, O king: who said, Keep silence. And all
that stood by him went out from him. 20 And Ehud came unto him; and he was
sitting in a summer parlour, which he had for himself alone. And Ehud said, I
have a message from God unto thee. And he arose out of his seat. 21 And
Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and
thrust it into his belly:

Shut of his right hand? Double Edged Dagger? ...... hmmm. Let us now look at
King Saul the next significant Benyamite and compare him with Paul. The first
thing that MUST be mentioned is that his name in Hebrew is also the same
Hebrew word tranlsated Hell (Sheol). Here is its first usage where KJV
translates it "grave":
Gen. 42:38 And he said, My son shall not go down with you; for his brother
is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in the which
ye go, then shall ye bring down my gray hairs with sorrow to the GRAVE.

 

[AnthonyForChrist]

Notice how King Saul was believed to be a prophet by some of Israel:
1Sam. 10:11 And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw
that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to
another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? IS SAUL ALSO AMONG
THE PROPHETS? 12 And one of the same place answered and said, But who is
their father? Therefore IT BECAME A PROVERB, Is Saul also among the prophets?
13 And when he had made an end of prophesying, he came to the high place.

1Sam. 19:23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: AND THE SPIRIT OF GOD
WAS UPON HIM ALSO, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in
Ramah. 24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before
Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night.
Wherefore they say, IS SAUL ALSO AMONG THE PROPHETS?

I have always believed that Paul was speaking of himself in this next
reference, but even if he isn't it is quite clear from his letters that he
thought he recieved revelation from Yahweh and was considered a prophet by
the people, even today:
2Cor. 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the
body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I knew such a man,
(whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which
it is not lawful for a man to utter. 5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of
myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would
desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I
forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be,
or that he heareth of me.

Notice how the people thought Paul was a god:
Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their
voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the
likeness of men. 12 And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul,
Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of
Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the
gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.

And continuing notice how Paul has an "angel of satan"
2Cor. 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance
of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the MESSENGER
OF SATAN to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Messenger is translated from the same greek word translated angel, actually
even in the Hebrew the same Hebrew word is translated both messenger and
angel depending on the whims of the translators. It would have been more
faithful if the translators stuck with either physical or spiritual concepts
when translating this verse. To be consistent it should be either "angel of
satan" or "messenger of the adversary", not "messenger of satan" which is
inconsistent. Notice how Saul also had an evil spirit from Yahweh troubling
him:
1Sam. 16:14 But the spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil
spirit from the LORD troubled him.

Was it Yahweh's will to use him to test men. Is this why Paul would need
grace because of his doubletalk (double edged dagger), easy to misinterpret
to what you want to believe? Did Paul know he would be misinterpreted? If you
notice "grace is sufficient for Paul" it does NOT say "grace is sufficient
for US"!
2Cor. 12:9 And he said unto me, MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE: for my
strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather
glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10
Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in
persecutions, in distresses for Christ,s sake: for when I am weak, then am I
strong. 11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I
ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very
chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

Notice how Yosef blesses Benyamin with grace before He frames him with the
golden cup to test His brothers:
Gen. 43:29 As he lifted his eyes and saw his brother Benjamin, his mother,s
son, he said, "Is this your youngest brother, of whom you spoke to me? And
he said, "May God be GRACIOUS to you, my son.

These "coincidences" seem to be adding up don't they? Notice how Saul built
an altar, and a monument:
1Sa 14:35 And Saul buildeth an alter to Jehovah; with it he hath BEGUN TO
BUILD ALTARS to Jehovah.
1Sa 15:12 And Samuel riseth early to meet Saul in the morning, and it is
declared to Samuel, saying, `Saul hath come in to Carmel, and lo, he is
setting up TO HIMSELF a monument, and goeth round, and passeth over, and
goeth down to Gilgal.'

Notice how Paul gave his own opinions which were NOT from Yahshua:
1Cor. 7:12 But to the rest speak I (Paul), NOT THE LORD: If any brother
hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him
not put her away.
1Cor. 7:25 Now concerning virgins I HAVE NO COMMANDMENT OF THE LORD: yet I
give MY JUDGMENT, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
These are just 2 references, there are many othes.

Next time you find yourself reading Paul's writings notice how often he
makes a point of pointing out that some of the things he is saying are his
opinion, there are many! Is this a test to see if we will follow Yahweh or
the opinions of man? I am not saying that Paul is condemned or anything of
the sort, just that he was used for a purpose, to test us.

Notice how Paul talks of people being judged according to HIS gospel.
Rom. 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing
or else excusing one another 16 In the day when God shall judge the
secrets of men by Jesus Christ ACORDING TO MY GOSPEL. *Paul's Gospel*

Rom. 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL *Paul's
Gospel*, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of
the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

What is the difference with Paul's gospel and Yahshua's? Is it for "dividing
the spoil"? Yahshua NEVER spoke against the Sinai Covenant although He did
speak against the added burdens placed on the Covenant by the Pharisees. Do
these next 4 verses sound similiar?

Gen. 42:34 And bring your YOUNGEST BROTHER unto me: then shall I know that
ye are no spies, but that ye are true men: so will I deliver you your
brother, and ye shall traffic in the land. (*youngest here from the Hebrew
word "lesser"*)
1Sam. 15:17 And Samuel said, When thou wast LITTLE IN THINE OWN SIGHT, wast
thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee
king over Israel? ("little" here is the same Hebrew word as "youngest")
1Cor. 15:9 For I am the LEAST OF THE APOSTLES, that am not meet to be
called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Sam. 9:21 And Saul answered and said, Am not I a Benjamite, of the
SMALLEST OF THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL? and my family the LEAST OF ALL THE FAMILIES
OF THE TRIBE OF BENJAMIN? wherefore then speakest thou so to me?

Could this nest reference be prophecy about Paul? If you read the context
you may agree that it fits quite well. This first verse seems to be speaking
of when the Kingdom was first split:
Zech. 11:14 Then I cut my second staff, Union, in pieces, to break the
brotherhood between Judah and Israel. (Now it seems that Yahweh is going to
drive the "wedge" deeper, Judah representing the Law) 15 And the LORD said
to me, "TAKE AGAIN for yourself the equipment of A FOOLISH SHEPHERD. 16
For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those
that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is
broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the
fat, and tear their claws in pieces. 17 Woe to the idol shepherd that
LEAVETH THE FLOCK! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye:
HIS ARM CLEAN DRIED UP, and his RIGHT EYE SHALL BE UTTERLY DARKENED.

 

[AnthonyForChrist]

"Take again"? Was Saul the 1st, and Paul the 2nd foolish shepherd? Now is it
possible that there is a parallel here or am I seeing things? Was Paul "shut
of his right hand" like Ehud? Is this why he had trouble writing? When he
wrote he wrote very large print. Is it possible that it was because he was
right handed and because it was "shut" he had to write with his left hand? We
also know Paul had trouble with his eyesight. Is it possible Paul was
anointed but unfortunately turned from Yahweh just as Saul? Did he build
monuments to himself like Saul? Was he just used to play a role? To "divide
the spoil"? To use Pauls own words:
1Cor. 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they
are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12
Wherefore let him that THINKETH HE STANDETH take heed lest he fall.

Do we "thinketh we standeth"? Don't forget, they even had the same name! Did
Paul know that his words would easily be twisted so if a person who was
unwilling to obey the 10 Words could easily interpret Paul's letters to
justify their not keeping them? Was Paul used for the purpose of testing men
to see if they would follow Yahweh or the teachings of men? Does Saul's
Kingdom symbolize man's system whereas David's Kingdom the Kingdom of The
Elohim? Which Kingdom do you prefer? Do we repent (as David) of our ways, or
do we continue deciding good and evil for ourselves (as King Saul)? Remember
what Peter had to say about Paul's writings:
2Pet. 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him
hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of
these things; in which are some things HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, which they that
are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto
their own destruction. 17 Ye therefore, beloved, SEEING YE KNOW THESE
THINGS BEFORE, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the
wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Do we "know these things"? I highly encourage Torah study for all
Christians. How else would a person be able to determine if something
contradicts Torah unless you KNOW it inside and out! How can we think we
understand Paul who was a Torah Scholar, if we do not study Torah ourselves?

Notice this account of a decendant of Benyamin and Saul:
2Sam. 16:5 And when king David came to Bahurim, behold, thence came out a
man of the family OF THE HOUSE OF SAUL, whose name was Shimei, the son of
Gera: he came forth, and cursed still as he came. 6 And he cast stones at
David, and at all the servants of king David: and all the people and all the
mighty men were on his right hand and on his left. 7 And thus said Shimei
when he cursed, Come out, come out, thou bloody man, and thou man of Belial:
8 The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in
whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into
the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief,
because thou art a bloody man. 9 Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto
the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I
pray thee, and take off his head. 10 And the king said, What have I to do
with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, BECAUSE THE LORD HATH SAID
UNTO HIM, CURSE DAVID. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? 11
And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which
came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this
Benjamite do it? let him alone, AND LET HIM CURSE; FOR THE LORD HATH BIDDEN
HIM. 12 IT MAY BE THAT THE LORD WILL LOOK ON MINE AFFLICTION, AND THE THE LORD WILL REQUITE ME GOOD FOR HIS CURSING THIS DAY. 13 And as David and his men went by the way, Shimei went along on the hill,s side over against
him, and cursed as he went, and threw stones at him, and cast dust. 14 And
the king, and all the people that were with him, came weary, and refreshed
themselves there.

 

[AnthonyForChrist]

Who "seems" to curse the Davids (beloveds) of the world who keep the
Commandments more than those who follow Paul instead of Yahshua? Who causes
others to curse Yahweh's Law? Is it not people who twist Paul's writings? Is
Paul helping to identify the tares? Is this why David says Yahweh told Shimei
to curse? Is good going to come from this? Are the Benyamites still testing
us? Notice again what Ishrael's blessing is to Benyamin:
Gen. 49:27 Benjamin is a wolf that raveneth: In the morning (King Saul?) he
shall devour the prey, And at even he (Paul?) shall divide the spoil.

Is it not evening? Is not Paul dividing the spoil? Was King Saul the
morning? Rashi thinks he is. There is an interesting account in 1Sam. 14:24
thru 45, it concerns a vow made by Saul and honey being eaten by his son
Johnathan. If you search "honey" I think you will easily see how it is
symbolic of Torah (Life). Land of milk and honey: breast milk and meat, baby
food and adult food? I will copy just 1 verse to hopefully encourage you to
read the account for yourself and see what I mean:
1Sa 14:29 Then said Jonathan, My father (Saul) hath TROUBLED THE LAND: see, I
pray you, how MINE EYES HAVE BEEN ENLIGHTENED, because I TASTED a little of
this HONEY. (Saul had troubled the land with a decree to the nation to fast
until he was given victory. Could this represent not eating of Torah today?)

Let us look at another thing that Paul says that I believe is misunderstood:
Rom. 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not;
but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I
consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do
it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
People like to use this to say that Paul sinned. Paul clearly was given a
large portion of Ruach HoChodesh (Holy Spirit), probably more than you and I
combined. Why, with the spirit indwelling in him, would he sin? Especially
when there is not one account in the NT of him ever breaking even 1 of the 10
Commandments! I believe he is talking of the thorn in his flesh, the
"messenger of the adversary"! Notice he says in vs. 16: I CONSENT UNTO THE
LAW THAT IT IS GOOD!!! In my mind it is clear, he wanted to speak more
clearly but that was not Yahweh's will for him. Paul had a different purpose,
to "divide the spoil"!

Personally I believe that Paul was inspired to speak in a way that if you
wanted to justify not obeying Yahweh that you could by twisting his words.
His writings expose what is in our hearts, whether we are obedient to Yahweh,
or trying to find a way around His Laws. This I believe was his "thorn in the
flesh". But then, even though Paul never says "not to keep the 10
Commandments", if you believe that is what he said you would be following a
man and not Yahweh. Ever notice how "Christians" who say the 10 Words are not
binding rarely, if ever quote Yahshua? They always quote Paul. Does this make
them Christians or Paulinians? I believe that Paul was quite aware of this
and it troubled him. Yahweh however had a purpose for Paul and it was to
"divide the spoil" as stated in Gen 49:27. Paul, being a willing servant, is
accomplishing this role quite well, this is why he needed Yahweh's grace, it
was sufficient for him. Now you may say, Yahweh would not inspire someone to
do this, well I believe this says otherwise:

Deut. 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and
giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 AND the sign or the wonder COME TO PASS,
whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou
hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the
words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: FOR YAHWEH YOUR ELHEEM
PROVETH YOU, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart
and with all your soul.

So what should I do if something seems to contradict Torah:
Deut. 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear HIM, and keep
HIS commandments, and obey HIS voice, and ye shall serve HIM, and cleave unto
HIM.

There are many examples of Yahweh testing His children. If He tempted
righteous Abraham do we really think that we are exempt?
Gen. 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that GOD DID TEMPT
ABRAHAM, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Notice Samuel's warning to the people when they asked for a king:
1Sam. 12:13 Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye
have desired! and, behold, the LORD hath set a king over you. 14 If ye will
fear YAHWEH, and serve HIM, and obey HIS VOICE, and NOT REBEL against the
commandment of the LORD, then shall both ye and also the king that reigneth
over you continue following the LORD your God:

Did you notice how Samuel makes a point of telling the people to NOT REBEL
AGAINST THE COMMANDMENT OF YAHWEH? To obey the voice of Yahweh over the King?
Saul caused Israel to sin often. Be careful when reading Paul, if it seems to
contradict Torah it is either a mistranslation or your own heart deceiving
you. Next time you find yourself reading about King Saul look a little deeper
and you will notice many parallels between his fruits and Pauls. I don't want
to give the wrong impression, personally I believe that Paul is Yahweh's
anointed, he is the Benyamite king that precedes Yahweh's Kingdom. I treat
him just as David treated Saul: I may be guilty of cutting the edge of his
garment, but I will NOT slay him. I also will not hold onto his coattails
either. Just as David "cut the corner" of Saul's robe. Another interesting
"coincidence" is how Saul summoned Samuel from the dead, just as Paul "saw"
Yahshua:
1Sam. 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old
man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it
was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus
whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Now getting back to the account of Yosef and His brothers. Notice how Yosef
"frames" Benyamin for the crime of stealing the silver cup:
Gen. 44:1 And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, Fill the men,s
sacks with food, as much as they can carry, and put every man,s money in his
sack,s mouth. 2 And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack,s mouth of the
youngest, and his corn money. And he did according to the word that Joseph
had spoken.

Was Paul also "framed" for the crime of doing away with the 10 Commandments?
If you look with an open mind, Paul never breaks any of the 10 Commandments
after the road to Damascus. I say do as he did, not as he "seems" to say!
Actually, in my opinion, when Paul talks about faith in Yahshua I believe
what is meant is faith that Yahshua can cover our sins and that we do not
have to sacrifice animals. A careful reading of what he says makes it clear,
for some 1500 years forgivness of sin required sacrifice, this change was not
an easy thing for people to accept at that time. The Galatians had started
sacrificing, this IMHO is why Paul rebuked them. New converts were told that
they were invited into the covenant and they had a hard time accepting that
the covenant did not require sacrifice anymore. Obedience to the 10 Words and
Faith that Yahshua could cover our sins if we merely heartfelt confessed them.

Paul's writings are for those who study Torah, reading his writings are like
reading the writings of a 25 year Doctorate of Law from Harvard. I have much
trouble with some of what he wrote, but I just put it aside until I can fit
it into the context of what has been firmly established as a foundation. That
foundation is the written instructions (Torah) and the living example
Yahshua. I do know that there is much we can learn from his writings, but
only when applied to Torah. Remember the prophecy:
Gen. 49:27 Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he (Saul) shall
devour the prey, and at night he (Paul) shall divide the spoil.

Do not be decieved. Let us live by the example set by Our Saviour, Yahshua
the Anointed! Let us live by the simple Law of Love, the 10 Commandments!!!
Remember it is Yahshua we are supposed to follow:

Matt. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot
or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall
teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but
whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the
kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness
shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no
case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[AnthonyForChrist]

The heaven and earth remain. Remember our righteousness must EXCEED the
righteousness of the Pharisees. Clearly, keeping the Commandments of our
Father is part of righteousness:

Deut. 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, IF we observe to do all these
commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

This is from the Encyclopedia Brittanica:

from http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/7/0,5716,119707+14,00.html

The tragedy of Saul was that he was a TRANSITIONAL FIGURE who had to bear
the burden of being the man who was OF AN OLD ORDER and at the same time OF A
NEW WAY of life among a people composed of disparate elements and leading
figures. Both Samuel, the last judge of Israel, and David, the future builder
of the small Israelite empire, opposed him. Saul was more a judge--A
CHARISMATIC LEADER--than a monarch. Unlike most kings of his time and area,
he levied no taxes, depended on a volunteer army, and had no harem. He did
not construct a court bureaucracy but relied rather on the trust of the
people in his charismatic leadership and thus did not alter the political
boundaries or structure of the tribal confederacy.

You must admit, it sounds much like Paul's mission, does it not?

 

[Higher Truth]

That is an "interesting" presentation that you have made....but then there is this...

Acts 9
10 And there was a certain disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And the Lord said to him in a vision, Ananias! And he said, Behold, Lord, I am here.
11 And the Lord said to him, Rising up pass along on the street being called Straight and seek a Tarsian, Saul by name, in the house of Judas. For, behold, he is praying.
12 And he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in and putting a hand on him, so that he may see again.
13 And Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many bad things he did to Your saints in Jerusalem.
14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all the ones calling on Your name.
15 And the Lord said to him, Go, for this one is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before nations and kings and the sons of Israel.
16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of My name.
17 And Ananias went away and entered into the house. And putting hands on him he said, Brother Saul, the Lord has sent me, Jesus, the One who appeared to you in the highway on which you came, that you may see and be filled of the Holy Spirit.
18 And instantly it was as if scales fell away from his eyes. And rising up at the thing happening, he was baptized.


Acts 22
12 And a certain Ananias, a devout man according to the Law, having been testified to by all the Jews living there,
13 coming to me and standing by, he said to me, Brother Saul, look up. And in the same hour I looked up on him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers appointed you to know His will, and to see the Just One, and to hear a voice out of His mouth;
15 for you shall be a witness for Him to all men of what you have seen and heard.


The statements "chosen vessel" and "The God of our fathers appointed you to know His will" and "you shall be a witness for Him to all men" are definitive statements here.

 

[KelsayDL]

Well...

Lets go ahead and give the link you cut and paste from, shall we?

http://www.judaismvschristianity.com/index.htm#Outline Mark


The author of this online book, makes alot of good observations concerning Paul and his ministry.

Somewhere in there he also touches on Ananias, and his dealings with Paul.

 

[koilias]

You know...my professor on Paul and Qumran Theology used to say: "Paul may have sat at the feet of Gamaliel, but every once in a while, even Harvard churns out bad apples!" Paul was not a good Biblical exegete. He was very formulaic and unsophisticated, his arguments tended to descend into sophistry, trying too much to fit into a "Greek mold".

Apparently, he was no great speaker either...He bored poor Eutichus to death!

But, boy, did the RuaH haKodesh use this man!

 

[blessed2]

First, in chapter 11 there is a reference made to the temple. It is obviously an earthly temple. That temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It is hard to imagine that John would have been told to measure the temple of God after it had been leveled.

Whyt not? We are to expect the rebuilding of the temple...and the dogs/gentiles are in the courtyard...the dome of the rock.

 

[AnthonyForChrist]

Whyt not? We are to expect the rebuilding of the temple...and the dogs/gentiles are in the courtyard...the dome of the rock.

Which verse are you quoting here? I'm curious.

 

[blessed2]

What difference does it make if he was or wasn't the greatest apostle? Salvation doesn't hinge on Paul. And really, talk about poetic justice......just as Peter denied Christ 3 times...( so I guess Peter wasn't as perfect as all that either nor above correction) then after the resurrection, Christ asked him 3 times "Do you Love me?" To confirm Him 3 times...it would be poetic justice to convert the 1 time pursecuter and I think your case for his vanity would have weakened in the face of beheading and he certainly knew what the price would be. All in all....the time and effort you spent trying to discredit Paul would have been better spent nurturing your relationship with the L-rd and after all didn't he say: if they're not against us.....

And keep in mind that these were human beings just like we are. They weren't automatically perfect but had to grow spiritually just like the rest of us.

 

[blessed2]

Too If in fact Paul was as it is written....then wouldn't it be blastphamy or something to be trashing him and these nt books or something?

 

[KelsayDL]

Unfortunately, Paul did not need to grow like the rest of us. He was imbued with knowledge from on high instantaneously, apparently.

Galatians 1:11-12
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Kind of like Joseph Smith and Mohhamed actually. But I digress on that matter.
..

Too If in fact Paul was as it is written....then wouldn't it be blastphamy or something to be trashing him and these nt books or something?

No.

How could speaking against Paul be blashphemy, when everyone in Asia eventually rejected his teachings. Yet Yeshua in the Revelation of John, addressed the seven churches in Asia and called them his.

Apparently speaking against Paul is not blasphemy in the eyes of God. It may be in the eyes of the RCC and the majority of denominational protestants, but not in Gods eyes.

Mt 12:32 -
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Was Paul the holy ghost?

I don't think so.


Pauls a very interesting study, to say the least.

 

[Amandine]

A lot of doctrine is backed up by his writings... it's interesting to think about. Thanks for postin'!
-Catherine

 

[blessed2]

How could speaking against Paul be blashphemy

Not Paul but the biblical books written by him.
Isn't the bible the inspired word of G-d?

Galatians 1:11-12
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

This states that the gospel is perfect, not the man.

It may be in the eyes of the RCC and the majority of denominational protestants, but not in Gods eyes.

This sounds like an ugly statement. I've seen several new to MJ in these forums much like myself and imagine that nasty, discriminating statements would probly do more to drive them away than to educate and include which by the way is very like denominational churches which is why so many of us have made an exodus from it.

 

[KelsayDL]

Not Paul but the biblical books written by him.
Isn't the bible the inspired word of G-d?

Depends on what you consider the bible.

Do I believe that every word in the New Testament is the infallible word of God?

No.

This states that the gospel is perfect, not the man.

Yes, the gospel Yeshua preached was indeed perfect. Yet Paul on more than one occassion states MY gospel.

It may be in the eyes of the RCC and the majority of denominational protestants, but not in Gods eyes.


This sounds like an ugly statement. I've seen several new to MJ in these forums much like myself and imagine that nasty, discriminating statements would probly do more to drive them away than to educate and include which by the way is very like denominational churches which is why so many of us have made an exodus from it.

No more ugly than insinuating someone questioning paul is being blasphemous.

I've seen many come here as well. Generally they leave because they are offended. They cite their pov and then refuse to listen to the answers they are given. They claim offense, tuck tail, and run, for the most part.

I would advise you to take a look at the thread you are in, it's a thread about the validity of Paul and his teachings. It is an ugly subject.

Some toss out ugly words such as blasphemy, others toss out ugly words such as the RCC.

If one reads this thread and is driven away from MJ due to it's contents, I would really have to question their real motives in the first place.

Do you suppose to find what MJ is all about in a thread titled as this one is titled?

 

[blessed2]

No more ugly than insinuating someone questioning paul is being blasphemous.

I didn't insinuate anything of the kind. I asked a question anticipating an honest answer to.

Do you suppose to find what MJ is all about in a thread titled as this one is titled?

When I say newbie, I mean fetal newbie and right now I'm reading just about everything there is to read here as although I have felt (i can't explain the feeling) drawn, hungry, yearning, ache.....to examine and cling to the jewish roots of my belief, feeling that I would be more completed and to draw closer to G-d in doing so, I , before stumbling onto this site did not know the MJ even existed, so yes, I find myself voraciously hungry for every scrap and crumb i find.
And to be honest, I have found so many loving, nurturing, guiding, teaching people here so learned and versed and intelegent....frankly it's overwhelming and i don't know where to begin.....guess i haven't found the "baby food section yet" and patience is required with those like me.....we have things to un-learn as well by the sheer virtue of the fact that the roots have been hidden from us all our lives.