Paul calls Enoch Scripture!

[yeshuasavedme]

Paul, the scribe of Scripture, who gives the sense and meaning of Scripture -and Peter, who walked with the LORD and learned from Him, both made quotes from "Scripture" which is found in Enoch -many times!

Paul calls Enoch Scripture, when he quotes his writings -as Jude also gives Enoch the full acknowledgment of "a prophet of God".

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."* 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."*

from Enoch Chapter 48

1 And in that place I saw the fountain of righteousness
Which was inexhaustible:
And around it were many fountains of wisdom:
And all the thirsty drank of them,
And were filled with wisdom,
And their dwellings were with the righteous and holy and elect.
2 And at that hour that Son of Man was named In the presence of the Lord of Spirits,
And his name before the Head of Days.

3 Yea, before the sun and the signs were created,
Before the stars of the heaven were made,
His name was named before the Lord of Spirits.

4 He shall be a staff to the righteous whereon to stay themselves and not fall,
And he shall be the light of the Gentiles,
And the hope of those who are troubled of heart.

5 All who dwell on earth shall fall down and worship before him,
And will praise and bless and celebrate with song the Lord of Spirits.

6 And for this reason hath he been chosen and hidden before Him,
Before the creation of the world and for evermore.

7 And the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits hath revealed him to the holy and righteous;
For he hath preserved the lot of the righteous,
Because they have hated and despised this world of unrighteousness,
And have hated all its works and ways in the name of the Lord of Spirits:

For in his name they are saved,
And according to his good pleasure hath it been in regard to their life.

[but the wicked will be shamed]

[Chapter 98]
...
And in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution,
Their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire.
9 Woe to you, ye fools, for through your folly shall ye perish: and ye transgress against the wise, 10 and so good hap shall not be your portion. And now, know ye that ye are prepared for the day of destruction: wherefore do not hope to live, ye sinners, but ye shall depart and die; for ye know no ransom; for ye are prepared for the day of the great judgement, for the day of tribulation and great shame for your spirits.

6, 7 And again I swear to you, ye sinners, that sin is prepared for a day of unceasing bloodshed. And they who worship stones, and grave images of gold and silver and wood (and stone) and clay, and those who worship impure spirits and demons, and all kinds of idols not according to knowledge, shall get no manner of help from them.

8 And they shall become godless by reason of the folly of their hearts,
And their eyes shall be blinded through the fear of their hearts
And through visions in their dreams.
9 Through these they shall become godless and fearful;

For they shall have wrought all their work in a lie,
And shall have worshiped a stone:
Therefore in an instant shall they perish.

10 But in those days blessed are all they who accept the words of wisdom, and understand them,

And observe the paths of the Most High, and walk in the path of His righteousness,

And become not godless with the godless;

For they shall be saved.

[Chapter 108]

1 Another book which Enoch wrote for his son Methuselah and for those who will come after him, 2 and keep the law in the last days. Ye who have done good shall wait for those days till an end is made of those who work evil; and an end of the might of the transgressors. And wait ye indeed till sin has passed away, for their names shall be blotted out of the book of life and out of the holy books, and their seed shall be destroyed for ever, and their spirits shall be slain, and they shall cry and make lamentation in a place that is a chaotic wilderness, and in the fire shall they burn; for there is no earth there.

And I saw there something like an invisible cloud; for by reason of its depth I could not look over, and I saw a flame of fire blazing brightly, and things like shining 5 mountains circling and sweeping to and fro. And I asked one of the holy angels who was with me and said unto him: ' What is this shining thing? for it is not a heaven but only the flame of a blazing 6 fire, and the voice of weeping and crying and lamentation and strong pain.' And he said unto me: ' This place which thou seest-here are cast the spirits of sinners and blasphemers, and of those who work wickedness, and of those who pervert everything that the Lord hath spoken through the mouth 7 of the prophets-(even) the things that shall be. For some of them are written and inscribed above in the heaven, in order that the angels may read them and know that which shall befall the sinners, and the spirits of the humble, and of those who have afflicted their bodies, and been recompensed 8 by God; and of those who have been put to shame by wicked men: Who love God and loved neither gold nor silver nor any of the good things which are in the world, but gave over their bodies to torture. Who, since they came into being, longed not after earthly food, but regarded everything as a passing breath, and lived accordingly,

and the Lord tried them much, and their spirits were 10 found pure so that they should bless His name.

And all the blessings destined for them I have recounted in the books. And he hath assigned them their recompense, because they have been found to be such as loved heaven more than their life in the world,

and though they were trodden under foot of wicked men, and experienced abuse and reviling from them and were put to shame,

11 yet they blessed Me. And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed 12 with such honour as their faithfulness deserved.

And I will bring forth in shining light those who 13 have loved My holy name,

and I will seat each on the throne of his honour.

And they shall be resplendent for times without number; for righteousness is the judgement of God; for to the faithful 14 He will give faithfulness in the habitation of upright paths. And they shall see those who were , 15 born in darkness led into darkness, while the righteous shall be resplendent. And the sinners shall cry aloud and see them resplendent, and they indeed will go where days and seasons are prescribed for them.'

When through Isaiah, YHWH makes mention of the passages from Enoch which are pasted in my prior post, YHWH says;

45:"23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

Only in Enoch have Paul and Peter read that all shall bow to Jesus, the Messiah, as YHWH come, and only in Enoch, do Paul and Peter get the part about "His name" -not from Isaiah.


In Enoch, Isaiah has read that He is the Hidden God -until His revealing, and Isaiah begins to quote from Enoch -as Paul and Peter's references to Enoch prove, for it is "His Name" "revealed" to whom all bow.

Isaiah 45:15-24;
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:

who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Surely, shall one say, F229 in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."
```
Only in Enoch has God already sworn that all shall bow the knees to Jesus Christ, the Hidden in God from the beginning Son of Man who was with God and was God -from the beginning "whose name was secret until His revealing" , and in whose name all who are saved are not shamed, in the end. who confess His name'.
I have posted this on another forum and wanted to share it here, too.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Pretty incredible post!

Seems like I'm going to have to read my O.T. with new eyes. All the O.T. authors, we can assume, had Enoch's book for reference, and it is easy to overlook their references to it becasue we've filtered these verses for so long with other lenses on our eyes.

 

[Tdigaetano]

And?

 

[MamaZ]

Paul, the scribe of Scripture, who gives the sense and meaning of Scripture -and Peter, who walked with the LORD and learned from Him, both made quotes from "Scripture" which is found in Enoch -many times!

Paul calls Enoch Scripture, when he quotes his writings -as Jude also gives Enoch the full acknowledgment of "a prophet of God".

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."* 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."*

[but the wicked will be shamed]
When through Isaiah, YHWH makes mention of the passages from Enoch which are pasted in my prior post, YHWH says;



Only in Enoch have Paul and Peter read that all shall bow to Jesus, the Messiah, as YHWH come, and only in Enoch, do Paul and Peter get the part about "His name" -not from Isaiah.


In Enoch, Isaiah has read that He is the Hidden God -until His revealing, and Isaiah begins to quote from Enoch -as Paul and Peter's references to Enoch prove, for it is "His Name" "revealed" to whom all bow.

Isaiah 45:15-24;
Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:

who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Surely, shall one say, F229 in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."
```
Only in Enoch has God already sworn that all shall bow the knees to Jesus Christ, the Hidden in God from the beginning Son of Man who was with God and was God -from the beginning "whose name was secret until His revealing" , and in whose name all who are saved are not shamed, in the end. who confess His name'.
I have posted this on another forum and wanted to share it here, too.

Only in Enoch? I doubt this highly.

 

[SummaScriptura]

And?

So?

 

[Epiphoskei]

My footnotes say that scripture, "all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved" is from Joel 2:32. It's there verbatim. No need to look in Enoch. Isaiah 45:23 is a good enough source for "every knee shall bow" as well. All of those scriptures can be found in the Old Testament canon, without the need to look in Enoch.

You're also making Enoch earlier than Isaiah. No one familiar with the second temple period would do that. It's clearly written to adress second temple trends the author didn't like. That creates an earliest possible date in the centuries right before christ.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Hi,
Just checking in briefly....
Isaiah states YHWH is saying every knee will bow Paul says The Word says that to Jesus Christ every knee will bow. The book of 1 Enoch is Paul's reference as it is there that the bowing and confessing is done by all the condemned on the day of judgment, to the Son of Man.

The Son of Man seen by Enoch who was with God and who was God, and who was hidden -kept secret- is YHWH, now come in human flesh, and it is to Him whom Enoch states that the Father has committed the sum of all judgment. Jesus quotes that fact about Himself, which Enoch first reveals, also.

 

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>You're also making Enoch earlier than Isaiah. No one familiar with the second temple period would do that. It's clearly written to adress second temple trends the author didn't like. That creates an earliest possible date in the centuries right before christ.

I'd say St. Jude was pretty familiar with the 2nd-temple period and he dates Enoch to Enoch! I'd say that's a tad bit earlier than Isaiah. By the way, the same scholars who late-date Enoch also late-date Isaiah and say it wasn't written by several different folks.

 

[MrPolo]

When you have citations like Jude or perhaps Paul from apocryphal books, these NT writers are appealing to Tradition, since the sources are not Scripture. They are advancing a truth that is contained in Enoch (or the Assumption of Moses) that can only be known as truth by way of Tradition, since these books are not divinely inspired.

 

[SummaScriptura]

When you have citations like Jude or perhaps Paul from apocryphal books, these NT writers are appealing to Tradition, since the sources are not Scripture. They are advancing a truth that is contained in Enoch (or the Assumption of Moses) that can only be known as truth by way of Tradition, since these books are not divinely inspired.

MrPolo, you cannot so easily dismiss the clear words of Jude, "It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying..." When Jude wrote that, Jude was quoting The Book of Enoch; but notice Jude did not say he was quoting the Book of Enoch. Rather, Jude says he is quoting Enoch the man, descended 7th from Adam.

Most of the time, the knee-jerkish response to Jude's citing Enoch is, "there are other books quoted in the Bible but they're not viewed as scripture either..."

Jude's quote IS NOT at all equivalent to Paul quoting pagans! Its not even equivalent to the Bible quoting other parts of the Bible; unlike the phrase, "it is written", Jude says in effect, "when I read the Book of Enoch I KNOW I'm reading the authentic words of God's prophet, Enoch". The term "It is written", often used for scripture quotations, is a less global, less emphatic endorsement it seems to me. Jude really doesn't leave you the wiggle room you're looking for.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I'd say St. Jude was pretty familiar with the 2nd-temple period and he dates Enoch to Enoch! I'd say that's a tad bit earlier than Isaiah. By the way, the same scholars who late-date Enoch also late-date Isaiah and say it wasn't written by several different folks.

Is. is 700 BCE . . . and Enoch is dated 2nd Cent BCE . . . that would be about 500 years bro . . .

So Is would pre-date the Enoch . . . though I don't know oddles about Enoch.

I think that the allusions and quote are found in the OT also (as Epi. stated) as they are common Hebraic idioms . . . this makes it unnecessary to traverse to Enoch as the source.

Anyway, given Enoch is a Jewish writ . . . and they are probably common Hebrew idioms . . . it is not suprising to find them in either.

But to make the claim that they are exclusive to Enoch and that the quotes make them Scripture is error . . . otherwise we have Scripture quoted by a pagan poet on the Areopagus . . .

Just cause something is quoted does not make it Scripture . . .

 

[SummaScriptura]

Is. is 700 BCE . . . and Enoch is dated 2nd Cent BCE . . . that would be about 500 years bro . . .<snip>

Other than citing an opinion from a secondary source, are you able to state your reasons for dating 1 Enoch to the 2nd Cent BC? Is there anything internal to the book that leads you to do so?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Other than citing an opinion from a secondary source, are you able to state your reasons for dating 1 Enoch to the 2nd Cent BC? Is there anything internal to the book that leads you to do so?

No. As I said . . . I don't know oodles about Enoch. I know some . . .

Are you of the opinion that Enoch was really written by the Enoch of Genesis?

 

[SummaScriptura]

No. As I said . . . I don't know oodles about Enoch. I know some . . .

Are you of the opinion that Enoch was really written by the Enoch of Genesis?

Yes.

But I did not always believe that. And I was a skeptic for quite some time until the problems I had with the book were resolved one by one.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes.

But I did not always believe that. And I was a skeptic for quite some time until the problems I had with the book were resolved one by one.

M-kay . . . why believe it was really written by Enoch?

 

[SummaScriptura]

M-kay . . . why believe it was really written by Enoch?

I have found evidence within it of foreknowledge of the kind only God could have.

For the sake of discussion, lets say the book was written during the Maccabean period. If this is the case, how can one explain the apparent foreknowledge of the writer of 1 Enoch of the generation in which Messiah would be come?

The writer of Enoch says 70 generations would come between the generation of Methuselah and the Son of Man who would come to judge the sinning angels. In Luke's gospel chapter 3, count from Methuselah to Christ; how many generations? 70. So, how could a mere rabbi or scribe, creating a fiction 200 B.C., in the name of a long-gone patriarch have had that sort of foreknowledge?

It would take a prophet on a par with a Daniel or an Isaiah or other. As it turns out, what does Jude say? That the Book of Enoch was written by the prophet Enoch.

It would take another kind of incredible faith to pose a scribe made up the Book of Enoch and correctly chose the generation of the Christ by accident.

That's what swayed me initially. Now, there are so many other reasons I believe it as well, but that is the short version.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I have found evidence within it of foreknowledge of the kind only God could have.

For the sake of discussion, lets say the book was written during the Maccabean period. If this is the case, how can one explain the apparent foreknowledge of the writer of 1 Enoch of the generation in which Messiah would be come?

The writer of Enoch says 70 generations would come between the generation of Methuselah and the Son of Man who would come to judge the sinning angels. In Luke's gospel chapter 3, count from Methuselah to Christ; how many generations? 70. So, how could a mere rabbi or scribe, creating a fiction 200 B.C., in the name of a long-gone patriarch have had that sort of foreknowledge?

It would take a prophet on a par with a Daniel or an Isaiah or other. As it turns out, what does Jude say? That the Book of Enoch was written by the prophet Enoch.

It would take another kind of incredible faith to pose a scribe made up the Book of Enoch and correctly chose the generation of the Christ by accident.

That's what swayed me initially. Now, there are so many other reasons I believe it as well, but that is the short version.

Interesting.

Let me play devils advocate for a sec K?

1. The Geneologies of Matt and Luke are BOTH missing persons. 70 probably more refers to some numerological significance . . . like Jesus as the Lamb slain with seven eyes (seven being the number of wholeness or perfection the eyes refering to sight and knowledge) and seven horns (horns being a symbol of power) and has the seven Spirits of God that go throughout the Earth. The picture signifying perfect knowledge/sight=omniscience, perfect power=omnipotence, and perfect presence over the earth=omipresence.
2. Jude simply says that Enoch prophesied
Jude 14-16
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, " Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
NASU
not that he held the office of a prophet.

Can you show me that this is indeed a quote from 1 Enoch? Could it perhaps be the citation of a oral tradition? What was 1 Enoch written in . . . or what do we have that it was written in?

Thanks

MTK

 

[MrPolo]

Most of the time, the knee-jerkish response to Jude's citing Enoch is, "there are other books quoted in the Bible but they're not viewed as scripture either...Jude really doesn't leave you the wiggle room you're looking for.

If I follow you correctly, you are saying because Jude uses the phrase "prophesied" regarding a teaching of Enoch recorded in the book of Enoch, that therefore the entire book of Enoch is God-breathed Scripture? If so, I would point out that is not end-all criteria in identifying Scripture. I am not quite certain--you are arguing that Enoch is Scripture? And that denominations across the board have missed this?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Interesting.

Let me play devils advocate for a sec K?

1. The Geneologies of Matt and Luke are BOTH missing persons. 70 probably more refers to some numerological significance . . . like Jesus as the Lamb slain with seven eyes (seven being the number of wholeness or perfection the eyes refering to sight and knowledge) and seven horns (horns being a symbol of power) and has the seven Spirits of God that go throughout the Earth. The picture signifying perfect knowledge/sight=omniscience, perfect power=omnipotence, and perfect presence over the earth=omipresence.
2. Jude simply says that Enoch prophesied
Jude 14-16
14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, " Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
NASU
not that he held the office of a prophet.

Can you show me that this is indeed a quote from 1 Enoch? Could it perhaps be the citation of a oral tradition? What was 1 Enoch written in . . . or what do we have that it was written in?

Thanks

MTK

Dear D.A.,

Not to be confused with District Attorney, though in San Francisco that distiction is irrelevant because the D.A. here is also the D.A. for his infernal one, but I digress...

I am aware of gaps in the Matthew genealogy. We know this from other scripture. Regarding Luke's genealogy, I have looked and not been able to find gaps. So, Mr. D.A., since you assert there are there gaps, the burdne on you is to demonstrate where they are. Where, pray tell, are they?

About Enoch prophesying, even without The Book of Enoch in the Bible, before I ever considered it as included, when I was limiting myself to the 66 books of the Protestant Bible, for decades I had concluded Enoch was a prophet. Not merely based upon Jude, but also in the name he chose for his son at birth; it is possible to see in the name of Methuselah a prophetic word about the flood to come. Methuselah's name has been understood by many to mean "when he dies it will come". So Enoch named his baby boy "When He Dies It Will Come" and 969 years later, like a precision timepiece, when Methuselah died, the flood came that year.

What do they say, "If it quacks like a duck..."?

Suffice it to say, even before I laid eyes on 1 Enoch, I had already accepted the fact Enoch is among the Old Testament prophets. It was only recently I've concluded he is also a writing prophet.

About the "sevenfold" information you metioned above, you're right in your interpretation of course, and although "7" in scripture has a symbolic usage, it nevertheless carries specificity in this case; the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Enoch have a specific intersection on this point.

Bob Burns
Scam Francisco

 

[SummaScriptura]

If I follow you correctly, you are saying because Jude uses the phrase "prophesied" regarding a teaching of Enoch recorded in the book of Enoch, that therefore the entire book of Enoch is God-breathed Scripture? If so, I would point out that is not end-all criteria in identifying Scripture. I am not quite certain--you are arguing that Enoch is Scripture? And that denominations across the board have missed this?

My post here deals with the prophesy question:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=47929048&postcount=19

I'm not arguing it is scripture, I am stating the fact the Book of Enoch has been considered a part of scripture for more than 2 millenia. The question really is, who's list of the books of the Bible are in your Bible? If you say The Book of Enoch is not in your Bible, okay. But that is not the case with everyone. Truth is, the Book of Enoch was deemed scripture and preserved in Ethiopia by the Falasha Jews from as far back as anyone can determine; then when the Falasha converted to Orthodox Christianity, The Book of Enoch remained a sacred book of scripture to them and is currently in the Bible of Orthodox Ethiopians, and even for other Ethiopians. The Book of Enoch has always been in someone's list of scripture books since before N.T. times.

Just as a reminder, the Ethiopians have figured prominently in the story of salvation from at least the time of King Solomon. An Ethiopian Jew helped Jeremiah in the time of his distress. The Ethiopian eunuch brought Christianity to Ethiopia in the 1st century. A huge number of Hebrew words are part of the various languages of Ethiopia. No one knows for sure the time the Falasha migrated to Ethiopia, some surmise it occured at the time of the fall of the Kingdom of Israel in 722 BC. Whenever they came, they brought The Book of Enoch with them.

The Jews in Israel also held the Book of Enoch in high regard. Of the 5 most represented books in the libraries recovered from the Dead Sea Scrolls, they rank in this order, Psalms, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, Book of Jubilees (also in the Ethiopian Bible) and the Book of Enoch. Jubilees and Enoch were more represeted than 4 of Moses other books!

Again, The Book of Enoch has always been in someone's list of scripture books since before N.T. times. Its very lately become a part of mine.