Pastor leaves Adventism

NightEternal said:

Any message that professes to lift up Christ and the truth of His word should be attractive and appealing. People should be flooding through the doors at an unprecedented rate. They should be drawn to us like moths to a flame. It is inexcusable for an SDA church to be struggling with 40 on the books and 20 attending like so many I have seen in this country. Most of our growth that we do experience here in North America can be attributed to 'sheep stealing' from other churches.

Again I ask, if we have such a special, exciting end-time message, where are all the unchurched people? Why are they not flocking to us?

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I agree that the message of salvation should be (IS) attractive and appealing, but I think the reason our church isn't being flooded is because our church doesn't teach the fairytale about immediate life after death.

It's pretty consistent in the secular world that there is some kind of "spirit world" and even people that do believe in Christ but don't attend church, seem to think they'll get a second chance after the second coming.

Our message on those subjects isn't what they want to hear Night.

When my older sister asked me about the Adventist church I started telling her what the bible really says about death and I said "if you think about it, the truth is just as beautiful as the fairytale." She was NOT happy that I believe we sleep after death AT ALL.

In fact, she said "what is so beautiful about sleeping while your children grow up, your grandchildren grow up? Come on, you DO go straight to heaven when you die and you get to see all of that."

Our view of death and the fact that we exert some human effort to actually limit what we do and don't do on the seventh day, was enough for her to label us a cult.

She loves me, but she definitely thinks I belong to a cult.

Her church is more about feelings and the feel good philosophy that you can do anything you want as long as you believe Jesus is the Son of God and that His death on the cross covered any behavior you want to do, WITHOUT asking for forgiveness apparently....no human effort whatsoever.

She told me that I'm exactly the type of person that she has avoided her entire adult life because I take scripture too literally and put too much faith in words written by MEN thousands of years ago.

(We've patched things up but we do NOT talk about our Christian beliefs anymore, period).

In order for my sister to even want to hear anything else about my church, I'd have to tell her something like "okay, you know what, I DO think we go to heaven right when we die."

I'm not willing to do that.

I wanted to comment on the "going through the motions of church" comment Greg made, but I have to do something real fast. I'll be back shortly.

Okay, I'm back.

I wanted to say that when I first attended an Adventist church I was in culture shock. In the church I grew up in, everyone was pretty loud, everyone clapped a lot, and there was a weekly "altar call" where the pastor said "do you know BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT if you were to die tonight on your way home from church, that you'd be seeing our Savior TONIGHT?"

I really did think my little Adventist church was somewhat dead.

But some members of our church had a surprise bonfire birthday party for my sister-in-law one night, and what I discovered is that these really meek people that are so reverent in church....are exactly like me.

Some of them were telling stories about their teenage years and oh my goodness, I could've taken their names out of some of those stories and inserted my own.

The people in my church are FUNNY, they're smart, they're loud, they totally RELATE to just about any problem that a member in the church encounters....but they are also very aware of reverence in God's sanctuary.

That's why fellowship is such a huge part of the Adventist church. If I hadn't gotten to know some of these people, I don't think I would've understood the enormous respect they have for God's house. I would've just thought they were uninspired and unfeeling.

The Adventist message is never going to be the most popular. Why would it be? The "churched" people back in Jesus' time didn't recognize Him as the Person they had been reading about and the end times aren't going to be any different.

Our message about death will always, always, always, keep some people from wanting to hear more.

In fact, she said "what is so beautiful about sleeping while your children grow up, your grandchildren grow up? Come on, you DO go straight to heaven when you die and you get to see all of that."

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And watch them fail and watch them squabble over the estate ... No thanks, I'll sleep in.

Our message about death will always, always, always, keep some people from wanting to hear more.

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The key word is "some." Some people will never be reached.

NightEternal said:

Again I ask, if we have such a special, exciting end-time message, where are all the unchurched people? Why are they not flocking to us?

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You were asking two different questions. One is why not mega churches. The answer to that is the culture of Adventism which does tend to be more involved then the typical mega church member and second mega churches are usually driven by the personality of a particular leader.

The second question is why are not the unchurched flocking to SDA churches. The answer is about the same for SDA churches as it is for the other Christian denominations which are also steadily decreasing, though we have not got to the state of Europe we are still likely on that path. I saw in the most recent Adventist World that the UK has 27,000 Adventist members as country of 60.2 million where only 15 percent of the population attend church regularly.

The Washington Conference is the smallest geographically at it has 20,000 members in a region of 20 million people. making it the most unchurched of the US conferences. But they have practically nothing developed to reach the unchurched. Right now they are focused on a program to make people give Bible Studies. The Bible studies are traditionally proof text methods which focus on SDA belief and ignore the other Christian beliefs and the reasons other Christians believe them. So they are beginning not with the idea of making them Christians but making them Adventists

This seemed to work in the past but today most people can access the internet and see that there are various beliefs and that just because someone says this is what the Bible says it may not be true. So we try to bring them into the SDA church, still focus mainly on those in other churches, but we don't try to teach them how to think about the Bible and how to reason taking the Bible as a whole. We don't tell them how to deal with the cruelty of the Bible how God could simply destroy His creation and how he could instruct people to kill other nations so completely that they only leave the virgin girls alive. Then we call the whole book the Word of God. Post modern people are not afraid to ask questions and they are finding that fundamentalist Christian religions don't have answers. Frankly the Evangelicals don't have much answers either and often a view of God which is just as problematic as the fundamentalist.

Liberal Christians don't do any better because they offer very little substance in the form of hope or reason to be Christian anyway. Many will say that they are simply led by the Holy Spirit and what they believe is what the Holy Spirit wants them to know. They don't have reasons that they can communicate what they believe. Most Christians including Adventists have not found that middle ground of faith and reason and as such Christianity is fading away.

Unfortunately Christians have not realized their need and the need to change

You were asking two different questions. One is why not mega churches. The answer to that is the culture of Adventism which does tend to be more involved then the typical mega church member and second mega churches are usually driven by the personality of a particular leader.

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You've got that right! We should be seeking quality, not quantity. When we finally decide to start loving each other instead of attacking each other, then, as Ellen White predicted, the people will flock to our churches and we won't have enough room for them all.

Right now they are focused on a program to make people give Bible Studies.

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Good approach! Those who give Bible studies also learn the Bible better. The problem, however, is that people will either try to give Bible studies to people who are total strangers, or to people who already know them too well.

The Bible studies are traditionally proof text methods which focus on SDA belief and ignore the other Christian beliefs and the reasons other Christians believe them. So they are beginning not with the idea of making them Christians but making them Adventists

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Please scan them and post it so we can judge for ourselves.

The thing about the state of the dead, or the Sabbath, is that if you can get a fellow Christian to see the biblical truth of either of those subjects...then they'll start questioning what ELSE they've been lied to about.

I can see using the approach of focusing on our differences from mainstream churches in order to let people know what we're about before they attend a service. If they can't get past the Sabbath or the state of the dead, they definitely won't listen to the rest of our message either.

I start with baptism--that's an easy one.

In addition to what the Bible says I can also tell them about the lecture I attended at Notre Dame in which the lecture showed a slide of the floor of the Leaning Tower of Pisa (not Pizza) that has an octaganol layout--underneath it is the old baptisty--which means when the tower was built (begun in 1173) they were still practicing baptism by immersion.

Wow, Lord, they really have no idea, do they?


Ahhh yes but at least they are questioning it. It IS a start.

The problem I think we have as a church is we do not teach people how to be disciples of Jesus, how to be in a relationship with the Lord. Too many local churches teach people how to be Borg Adventists, hence people do things not because they are convicted to do them but because they have been taught to do them, heavily influenced by whatever elder or Adventist member brought them into the church. We need to stretch people who are still drinking milk after 10, 20, 30 years in the church to spiritual solids. If a human still depended on his parents to feed, clothe and provide for him as an adult we would wonder if they had 'special needs' yet that is how the leaders treat the members as if they have 'special needs' so they do not really encourage them to grow spiritually.
Even if people were flocking to our churches I do not see mega churches as the answer, as the church grows you start a new church not flock to the existing church to increase the membership from 600 to 2000, a church of 2000 could make at least 4 or even 8 churches.
Maybe its an American thing you like to supersize things? -lol

As for Europe, well I live in the U.K and not only is the church small as mentioned, the church does not reflect the indigneous population. But even among the next generation of immigrants (we are really 'natives' since we are born in the U.K) the church growth is slowing down, it is new immigrant communitues who are causing growth for the church. There is something about how Christianity is perceived that is not relevant to the indigneous Europeans, perhaps is it not the message that is the problem but the presentation of the message? Adventism can be pretty formal and over structured some members would have a heart attack if say we decided to have Sabbath School all day or something.

TrustAndObey said:

That's why fellowship is such a huge part of the Adventist church. If I hadn't gotten to know some of these people, I don't think I would've understood the enormous respect they have for God's house.

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Since you got to know them at a birthday party I sense you believe that worship takes place in church and fellowship takes place outside of church. Am I correct in my assessment?

moicherie said:

Too many local churches teach people how to be Borg Adventists, hence people do things not because they are convicted to do them but because they have been taught to do them, heavily influenced by whatever elder or Adventist member brought them into the church.

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First, I love the "Borg" reference. Awesome.

Second, from my observation and experience, it goes beyond the problem you illustrated above. It is not ONLY that people are heavily influenced and taught but not convicted, though I'm sure that goes on as well. It's that those who do this heavy influencing and "teaching" seem to want to BE conviction for others. There is no room given for God to work, and no allowing for the possibilities discussed in principle in Romans 14. Rather, the various stripes of theological bully rule the roost, and want to play "Heavy Handed Holy Spirit" with everyone else, browbeating conviction into them through fear and mental intimidation. The natural spiritual process is thwarted and in some cases wholly aborted. There is no opportunity for growth precisely because everything is a freaking foregone conclusion: "this is the only right way to see X." It's impossible to grow organically, in a spiritual sense, where the outcome is fixed; it inhibits the process of getting there. The search for truth thus ends up inevitably being replaced by a series of fixed, immobile propositions to be assimilated by rote mechanism and which ultimately MUST be accepted "or else". People simply CANNOT grow spiritually as whole people under such a configuration. It's a recipe for disaster.

If you study the Bible you will find that folks have been about telling others how to live for a long time. This can be good or bad depending on how it is done and if the Lord is in it or not.

I've witnessed some bad guidance attempts in our church myself. I think this is where the pastor and elders need to come to the table and redirect this stuff. Some do in with good intentions but don't realize the negative impact they are having until they have driven someone out of the doors of the church.

Examples of some of this sort of stuff is things like jewelry for new members. Some of our seasoned sisters can castigate a new lady member by coming on too strong about our position on this. I believe in most cases we need to allow the Holy Spirit to convict these folks as they grow in the faith. We are not at the same place in our walk with the Lord. It takes time to get where the Lord will eventually lead us. Some in our church want to catch them up instantly and this can spin them right out the doors.

I agree with you Moriah.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Jimlarmore said:

If you study the Bible you will find that folks have been about telling others how to live for a long time. This can be good or bad depending on how it is done and if the Lord is in it or not.

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The problem is that you can't tell whether these are the wise ones. You won't find the examples of those who chose not to micromanage the lives of other. Silence is not only golden; it is invisible.

Jimlarmore said:

Examples of some of this sort of stuff is things like jewelry for new members. Some of our seasoned sisters can castigate a new lady member by coming on too strong about our position on this. I believe in most cases we need to allow the Holy Spirit to convict these folks as they grow in the faith. We are not at the same place in our walk with the Lord. It takes time to get where the Lord will eventually lead us.

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But see? You're doing it right here. You're postulating a one-size-fits-all foregone conclusion that everyone is expected to "eventually get to" when there is no such thing. It was for purposes such as these that Romans chapter 14 was written at all!! Churches that do NOT know how to have Romans 14 issues and let them be Romans 14 issues in Romans 14 style, are doomed. No two ways about it; they are destined for stagnation and calcification, because one-size-fits-all foregone conclusions abrogate all room for the Holy Spirit to work. The person is set up in a double-bind, a false dichotomy of EITHER-OR. EITHER they assimilate proposition X OR they reject it (natively) and then depending on which one they do, the process is cut off. Assimilating it brings false conviction and stifling attempts at conformity. Rejecting it sets up a false "rebel" scenario with all ITS attendant problems.

It's not rocket science -- start recognizing the patterns!! The patterns are everywhere!!!

sentipente said:

The problem is that you can't tell whether these are the wise ones. You won't find the examples of those who chose not to micromanage the lives of other. Silence is not only golden; it is invisible.

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I can think of several incidents of stories in the Bible where very good guidance was given by good people to help guide people's lives. Some were prophets, some not.

I think the bottom line is that for the most part human nature is very much into muttling into other folks business. Christ gave us a good example when He gave us the admonition of a man trying to take a mote out of his brother's eye. Christ said to take the beam out of your own eye first then you can see to take the mote out of your brother's eye.

I think we need to be very careful what we say to our brothers and sisters in the faith that may be taken as a negative statement to put them down or in any way invalidate them. The Bible says satan is the accusers of the brothern. The word devil also can mean " a slander". So when we slander or gossip we are being devils by definition.

Let's let our creator direct our tongues and pray daily that He keeps us from offending our brother or sisters.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Originally Posted by TrustAndObey

That's why fellowship is such a huge part of the Adventist church. If I hadn't gotten to know some of these people, I don't think I would've understood the enormous respect they have for God's house.

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Since you got to know them at a birthday party I sense you believe that worship takes place in church and fellowship takes place outside of church. Am I correct in my assessment?

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You are reading and assuming way too much into what little we have at hand. That's kind of par for the course tho'.

Moriah_Conquering_Wind said:

But see? You're doing it right here. You're postulating a one-size-fits-all foregone conclusion that everyone is expected to "eventually get to" when there is no such thing. It was for purposes such as these that Romans chapter 14 was written at all!! Churches that do NOT know how to have Romans 14 issues and let them be Romans 14 issues in Romans 14 style, are doomed. No two ways about it; they are destined for stagnation and calcification, because one-size-fits-all foregone conclusions abrogate all room for the Holy Spirit to work. The person is set up in a double-bind, a false dichotomy of EITHER-OR. EITHER they assimilate proposition X OR they reject it (natively) and then depending on which one they do, the process is cut off. Assimilating it brings false conviction and stifling attempts at conformity. Rejecting it sets up a false "rebel" scenario with all ITS attendant problems.

It's not rocket science -- start recognizing the patterns!! The patterns are everywhere!!!

Click to expand...

I believe you are right about the way some churches conduct their guidance, however,
Christianity is full of either or scenarios and true dichotomies for every man woman and child. After all the plan of salvation demands we accept Jesus Christ as our personal saviour OR face death eventually, ( read John 3:16 ). This is primary of course but certain things follow as a result. This is evident by the changed lives we see from being saved i.e. recovery from alcoholism/drug addiction etc. . We can see countless cases in the Bible where it makes it abundantly clear that God expects a saved man to walk a certain path. Compromise will always lead to a life of destruction as was demonstrated so many times by the stories portrayed concerning Israel.

Justification and rationalization of cherished sins is compromise and nothing else. I'm not saying you have to be this or that to be saved, the Bible and the One who inspired it is. Don't listen to anything I say, listen to what God and the Bible tells you. If the Lord convicts you to walk a certain way and if you refuse then you may have a problem later on. That is between you and your creator.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Originally Posted by Moriah_Conquering_Wind

But see? You're doing it right here. You're postulating a one-size-fits-all foregone conclusion that everyone is expected to "eventually get to" when there is no such thing. It was for purposes such as these that Romans chapter 14 was written at all!! Churches that do NOT know how to have Romans 14 issues and let them be Romans 14 issues in Romans 14 style, are doomed. No two ways about it; they are destined for stagnation and calcification, because one-size-fits-all foregone conclusions abrogate all room for the Holy Spirit to work. The person is set up in a double-bind, a false dichotomy of EITHER-OR. EITHER they assimilate proposition X OR they reject it (natively) and then depending on which one they do, the process is cut off. Assimilating it brings false conviction and stifling attempts at conformity. Rejecting it sets up a false "rebel" scenario with all ITS attendant problems.

It's not rocket science -- start recognizing the patterns!! The patterns are everywhere!!!

Click to expand...

Christianity is full of either or scenarios and true dichotomies for every man woman and child. After all the plan of salvation demands we accept Jesus Christ as our personal saviour OR face death eventually, ( read John 3:16 ). This is primary of course but certain things follow as a result. This is evident by the changed lives we see from being saved i.e. recovery from alcoholism/drug addiction etc. . We can see countless cases in the Bible where it makes it abundantly clear that God expects a saved man to walk a certain path. Compromise will always lead to a life of destruction as was demonstrated so many times by the stories portrayed concerning Israel.

Justification and rationalization of cherished sins is compromise and nothing else. I'm not saying you have to be this or that to be saved, the Bible and the One who inspired it is. Don't listen to anything I say, listen to what God and the Bible tells you. If the Lord convicts you to walk a certain way and if you refuse then you may have a problem later on. That is between you and your creator.

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One little "trick" I have learned is that when people posit "either/or" think "both/and." Not only is it more likely to be correct but all too often humans because of our short-sightedness and narrow-mindedness tend to over simplify complex problems--that's why they propose easy cheap solutions that are all wrong. Another advantage to thinking both/and instead of either/or as others are doing is it gets you to think outside the box that all the rats are in.

I stole the "both/and" concept from an apolgetics book I have by that title.

I like that idea of thinking in terms of patterns that Moriah proposed. The only problem here is that we tend to do the same thing that we see in the business world. Somebody learns how to use the hammer (some skill or analytic tool) and they start to see the whole world as one big place to use the hammer, instead of, say, using a screwdriver or pliers. Same thing in the military. You put some guy into the cavalry say in the Civil War and they learn to "cut theiur way" out of problems. They don't know how to do jabs and run, etc. So, you get guys like Custer who sort of finised (sp?) his last battle, but got all the guys under his immediate command killed because of his style of dealing with the enemy.

sentipente said:

The problem is that you can't tell whether these are the wise ones. You won't find the examples of those who chose not to micromanage the lives of other. Silence is not only golden; it is invisible.

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Now here is a point on which we can agree, Senti. It is what I term "conspicuous only in its absence" -- a thing is only visible when it is missing. Then all ask where has it gone? But no one notices when it is present; there is no appreciation.