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a very respectable reply grimbly; and I absolutely agree with you. as a creationist, i have to address many questions by faith, I may not have a great deal of knowledge in this subject, but, I also am confronted with some serious faith issues from the progress of science. It is only My firm conviction to faith that allows me to overcome some of these issues. and I know that the advancement of knowledge in DNA has been remarkable, yet it is still in it's infancy...and 98% is still theory,hypothesis, and outright speculation. so, until absolute is attained! I will question!Sorry, these threads kinda take on a life of their own and do tend to wander (some may even say they evolve). If it seems that way, I apologize cause I'm not trying to pick on you. The point I and others have been making is that the information argument is a red herring. We can't even define what it is, or how to measure it, yet the argument has been promoted that somehow, someway information proves evolution can't happen. All I'm saying along with everybody else is "Lets see the numbers". Unfortunately the argument sometimes gets muddled across all the cross chatter (and yes I'm guilty of that too).
Information being lost: when and how? The best I've got is this:I dont mind you asking me a specific question! but dont accuse me of being vague, when we have been generalizing for the last 5 or 6 posts, is there something specific I mentioned that you would like me to define ??
What information has been lost? Why is it at a 'high level'? This makes no sense to me at all.when arguing the transition from fish to mammal, now we are talking about a loss of information, and that at a substantially high level
well..Information being lost: when and how? The best I've got is this:What information has been lost? Why is it at a 'high level'? This makes no sense to me at all.
well..
J. Wittbrodt,A. Meyer,and M. Schartl
answered that very question with this....
Why are there more genes in fish than in mammals?
Total genome duplications (increases in ploidy) and individual
gene duplications obviously played an important evolutionary
role in shaping the vertebrate genome.
they blamed it on gene duplication.
it will take me some time to find it, and I have to work tomorrow, but, I will post it!
Answer: goto google; search for 'fish genes'; find this article. Ray like fish have more copies of certain genes than mammals. Why do they have more copies? Well because there's a mutation mechanism for copying genes (which sounds to me suspiciously like a mechanism that would increase the information in a genome), which has happened more times in fish than mammals for these particular genes since the lines split. That's a looong time ago.well..
J. Wittbrodt,A. Meyer,and M. Schartl
answered that very question with this....
Why are there more genes in fish than in mammals?
a very respectable reply grimbly; and I absolutely agree with you. as a creationist, i have to address many questions by faith, I may not have a great deal of knowledge in this subject, but, I also am confronted with some serious faith issues from the progress of science. It is only My firm conviction to faith that allows me to overcome some of these issues. and I know that the advancement of knowledge in DNA has been remarkable, yet it is still in it's infancy...and 98% is still theory,hypothesis, and outright speculation. so, until absolute is attained! I will question!
Miller does believe in miracles. He references his belief about the eucharist -- but I wasn't clear if he was Catholic/transubstantiation (my first guess) or some denom. that affirm consubstantiation. In either case, some miracle occurs (in his beliefs) every time he takes communion.
YMMV
HTH
Actually, this is the strangest of all conceptual beliefs, that conflicts between science and theology are moot arguments. In Christianity; the paradigm can be described in one word..Faith! and faith excludes reasoning.From your quote in bold: I was lucky I guess because even though I went to a parochial grade school, high school and Catholic University, I never had to face a confrontation between religion and science. I guess the approach I was taught probably was very different from what you are used to. Basically the philosophy i was taught was that good science and good religion are NEVER in conflict and if a conflict does arise, then at least one of the entities is bad. The reason why there should be no conflict is because the two activities are orthogonal to each other...good science is only concerned with figuring out how this universe works and good religion is only concerned with our relationship with God. Now if somebody tries to use science to "prove " there is no God, then they have crossed the line from physics to metaphysics and are preaching garbage. Likewise if a religion says that this is the way that the universe MUST work, then they too are preaching garbage since they too have crossed the line from metaphysics to physics. Anyway, I guess I am lucky in that I didn't have to fight that battle.
withreason said:I gather that maybe creationists are more passionat about the potential for being deceived, and deceiving those on the fringes of salvation.
grimbly; I do understand what you are saying, yet, the potential for being wrong within the science community can be resolved, corrected, and even understood more precisely through the discovery of error. and your colleagues are dedicated to a strict compliance of precise and accurate dialogue as well.I read what you wrote and I'm going to need some time to wrap my head around it (that's just me).
However I do want to address one statement that stands out. It's this one:
In my experience, there is no group of people I have met, that are more passionate about not being deceived or not deceiving others than scientists. As I mentioned in my previous post, sooner or later I will inadvertently say something that is either wrong or my reasoning will be faulty (i.e. I may be right but for the wrong reasons). I expect that someone from the science side will correct me, even though they may agree with the position I am defending. They will point out my errors not because they see a chance to take a cheap shot or they get a chance to show off their knowledge at the expense of another but rather they will correct me because they share a passion for being as factual and accurate as they possibly can be. It's what's expected of people in this profession...That should be the norm and in most cases it is!
I'll address the rest of your post later.
this is a very good post; and I believe you defined most peoples reasoning when confronted with the evidence that is observable in todays world. and, with that there seems to be individual discretion at determining what is faith? and how my belief from what I observe, can fit comfortably within my assessment of faith. and there is a merging of conflicting reasoning.While grimbly gathers his thoughts, I'd like to address the statement that "faith excludes reason."
For me, faith is what I need when I reach the end of the path that reason takes me down.
Christian faith is not about excluding evidence and believing 9 impossible things before breakfast.
The Heart of Chrisitianity by Marcus Borg enumerates 4 different uses and meaning of the word Faith as used throughout history. These are assent, trust, fidelity, and vision.
Real faith is trusting God to be God, being attentive to the relationship (fidelity), and trusting that the universe is fulfills God's purposes (vision). Assent is necessary, but in a trivial sort of way -- how do you trust God if you don't believe God exists, e.g.
Fundamentally, I believe God created this universe. I believe he gave us reasoning faculties and matching curiosity. The universe is to be examined and understood -- it reveals God's majesty and glory and power.
There are two kinds of knowledge: revealed and experienced. God gave us both. But when revealed knowlege and experienced knowledge conflict, what should be done? The problem with revealed knowledge is that my understanding depends on me. It depends on my background. In contrast, experienced knowledge by-and-large can be repeated and tested.
If there is a conflict, I've either misunderstood the evidence, or I misunderstand scripture. (A third possiblity is that scripture is just flat-out wrong, but we'll save that for another discussion another day.) If I test the evidence to the best of my ability and yet still find conflict, then what must be true? That my understanding of scripture must be faulty. This is natural and reasonable and inherent in the nature of revealed knowledge.
For me, then, it is quite natural to revise my understanding of the revealed to match that which I can touch, taste, hear, and see.
HTH
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