Pascal's Wager-- for theistic evolutionists

[Northern Christian]

Let's say God created the world through evolution. Both YECs and theistic evolutionists are safe in this situation. The theistic evolutionist is safe because he/she was correct, while the YEC is safe because he/she trusted the word of God.

Let's say that God created the world as detailed in the Bible. A believer who accepted the Biblical explaination of the origins of the world has nothing to fear in this circumstance, because he/she trusted the word of God. A theistic evolutionist who did not believe the Bible may be in trouble here. God may not allow someone who did not believe in the Bible into the Kingdom of heaven.

This can be shown as follows:
1. God created the world as outlined in Genesis and Person X believed it: all is fine.
2. God created the world through evolution and Person X believed the word of God, Person X is still ok because he/she trusted God over man.
3. God created the world through evolution, and Person X was a theistic evolutionist, Person X is still ok for being correct.
4. God created the world as outlined in Genesis and Person X believed in evolution: Person X may be in serious trouble here for trusting man's word over God's word.

So theistic evolutionists, why are you taking a chance? Why do you trust men over God? Why not just trust God's word, and be safe either way?

 

[troodon]

Let's say God created the world through evolution. Both YECs and theistic evolutionists are safe in this situation. The theistic evolutionist is safe because he/she was correct, while the YEC is safe because he/she trusted the word of God.

Let's say that God created the world as detailed in the Bible. A believer who accepted the Biblical explaination of the origins of the world has nothing to fear in this circumstance, because he/she trusted the word of God. A theistic evolutionist who did not believe the Bible may be in trouble here. God may not allow someone who did not believe in the Bible into the Kingdom of heaven.

This can be shown as follows:
1. God created the world as outlined in Genesis and Person X believed it: all is fine.
2. God created the world through evolution and Person X believed the word of God, Person X is still ok because he/she trusted God over man.
3. God created the world through evolution, and Person X was a theistic evolutionist, Person X is still ok for being correct.
4. God created the world as outlined in Genesis and Person X believed in evolution: Person X may be in serious trouble here for trusting man's word over God's word.

So theistic evolutionists, why are you taking a chance? Why do you trust men over God? Why not just trust God's word, and be safe either way?

Firstly, I find the very idea of Pascal's Wager to be rediculous. IMO, no mentally fit person could "make" themselves believe something out of fear of potential consequences. They could fake it, but it wouldn't be a true belief.

Secondly, even if a person is capable of "making" themselves believe something after being confronted with Pascal's Wager, I would personally consider it a hollow belief. How can God appreciate someone's belief if the only reason they hold it is out of fear of future consequences?

Thirdly, no where in the Bible does it say that acceptance of 6-day creation is necessary for salvation. I hate to think that God would surprise people with secret things they were supposed to believe in if they wanted to recieve eternal salvation.

Fourthly, how do you know God won't punish YECs for not accepting evolution?

 

[Northern Christian]

Thirdly, no where in the Bible does it say that acceptance of 6-day creation is necessary for salvation. I hate to think that God would surprise people with secret things they were supposed to believe in if they wanted to recieve eternal salvation.

Since when is it a suprise that one needs to believe in the word of God to be saved?

Fourthly, how do you know God won't punish YECs for not accepting evolution?

What would make you think that God would punish someone for not trusting His Word?

 

[troodon]

Since when is it a suprise that one needs to believe in the word of God to be saved?

Uh-oh. Should I make myself believe that the mustard seed is the smallest seed as well? God might quiz me on that during my judgement. Heck, He might even demand I believe polygamy and slavery to be ok as well. It's in scripture so I'd better believe it too, just to be on the safe side.

Do you really think God is that shallow?

What would make you think that God would punish someone for not trusting His Word?

What would make you think that God would punish someone for not trusting His Creation?

 

[wblastyn]

Since when is it a suprise that one needs to believe in the word of God to be saved?

We do believe the word of God, we just don't interpet it as being literal due to the evidence found in Creation.

Do you believe the earth is flat and covered with a dome with stars stuck around it? That's how the Bible describes the earth. Do you also believe there are storehouses for rain and snow above the "firmanent" (dome)? That's what the Bible says too. Do you also believe in fire-breathing sea serpents? Ask Job, he did.

Evolution isn't really the "word of man", it's what man can see in Creation - that all life evolved from a common ancestor. Why would God plant all this evidence if evolution is not true?

What would make you think that God would punish someone for not trusting His Word?

God's Creation is His second book, so why do you not believe Creation? What if God decided to punish you for ignoring what he "wrote" in Creation? (Creation would be more reliable that the bible since it wasn't put there by man, nor has it been tampered with by man to distort the message).

 

[Philip]

4. God created the world as outlined in Genesis and Person X believed in evolution: Person X may be in serious trouble here for trusting man's word over God's word.

So theistic evolutionists, why are you taking a chance? Why do you trust men over God? Why not just trust God's word, and be safe either way?

Of all the times Christ was asked "What must I do to be saved?" never once did He answer, "Read the creation story in a literal manner."

St Paul told us that all of creation testifies to God. Look at the evidence we see in creation. It testifies to a allegorical interpretation of Genesis. It is not that we don't trust God's word. It is that we have a different understanding of that word.

 

[The Barbarian]

Some of the creationist leaders, alarmed at the defections of their followers, are now preaching that God will send evolutionists to Hell.

Like creationism, that is neither Biblical nor Christian belief. It's one more step in the slow process of creationism breaking away to become a separate religion.

 

[Philip]

It's one more step in the slow process of creationism breaking away to become a separate religion.

An interesting thought. How far do you think it will go?

 

[short stick]

The theory of evolution is seen as the greatist clash between god and science, evolution is born out of the scientific studies, however this does not mean that the evolution of the species is totally by chance, i believe that god is guiding this process.
I do not believe that God would be vengeful and send all evolutionists to hell by not believing the exact wording in the bible...

 

[wblastyn]

The theory of evolution is seen as the greatist clash between god and science, evolution is born out of the scientific studies, however this does not mean that the evolution of the species is totally by chance, i believe that god is guiding this process.
I do not believe that God would be vengeful and send all evolutionists to hell by not believing the exact wording in the bible...

Evolution isn't chance anyway, it works by Natural Selection.

 

[Cedric Noggins]

To wblastyn: First, Natural selection is a natural, RANDOM process.
Secondly, evolution could never occur by merely natural selection, that is ridiculous!

Now, Pascal was a legendary mathematician among many other things, and I like his wager. It wasn't his only basis for faith, but it helped him as he was a very intelligent and logical man who needed some practical grounding for his faith.

Now, I share the same views as Northern Christian. I also have a question. Do you believe in evolution (posed at those who do, obviously) because of your wonderous scientific knowledge, or because it is what the world believes?

I don't wish to brag here, but I have an extremely high IQ, and I find evolution to be highly illogical and ridiculous in all aspects, whether one takes a macro-biological approach or micro-biological. I also know, and know of many other Christians with very high IQ's who share exactly the same view.
Again, I'm saying this just to tell you that there are people out there who think enormously about this, and do not follow through with the same conclusions. Not only is creation gods view, and what may potentially bring you to an eternal life, it is also highly logical.

There are two kinds of evolutionists; The ignorant and the ones who just want a "way out". Theistic evolutionists seem to be both.

 

[wblastyn]

To wblastyn: First, Natural selection is a natural, RANDOM process.
Secondly, evolution could never occur by merely natural selection, that is ridiculous!

(Natural) SELECTION is the opposite of random. The environment selects those organisms who have the best characteristics to survive and reproduce, it doesn't just pick and chose them at random.

You're right, evolution doesn't occur just by natural selection, there are random mutations and genetic drift to provide genetic variations which are also involved.

Now, I share the same views as Northern Christian. I also have a question. Do you believe in evolution (posed at those who do, obviously) because of your wonderous scientific knowledge, or because it is what the world believes?

I was a creationist (I even read all those "great" articles and books from AiG, etc) until I stopped ignoring the scientific evidence, so I guess I accept evolution based on my "wonderous scientific knowledge". I got my knowledge from here, various internet sites based on science (mostly http://www.talkorigins.org ) and from school.

I don't wish to brag here, but I have an extremely high IQ, and I find evolution to be highly illogical and ridiculous in all aspects, whether one takes a macro-biological approach or micro-biological. I also know, and know of many other Christians with very high IQ's who share exactly the same view.

Well from learning about the laws and whatever that bring about evolution it seems like it should happen, it's not illogical at all. Just because you have a high IQ doesn't mean you magically know everything or understand something. Did it ever seems strange to you how all these people with PhD's in biochemistry, biology, geology, etc all accept evolution if it's so "illogical". I mean obviously you don't know as much as you think if you thought evolution was random.

There are two kinds of evolutionists; The ignorant and the ones who just want a "way out". Theistic evolutionists seem to be both.

Well I certainly don't know everything there is about evolution but I'm not entirely ignorant about it. I don't know what you mean by "a way out"?

 

[Cedric Noggins]

Evolution is not random???????????
RANDOM mutations!
hehe... The environment does not "select" anything! Natural selection results in diversity among species and genus, but nothing large!
Random mutations are never beneficial, never!
Anyway, back to Blaise.
Pascal was a genius and he made a wager. Why don't you, with your infinitely smaller minds (devolution) choose to take this wager?

 

[sfs]

To wblastyn: First, Natural selection is a natural, RANDOM process.
Secondly, evolution could never occur by merely natural selection, that is ridiculous!

Mutation is a natural, random process that creates new genetic variation. Passing some of those variants on to offspring is a natural, random process. Natural selection is a nonrandom bias in which variants get passed on, in favor of those variants that help the organism survive or reproduce better. So natural selection is not a random process. (And no, no one who studies evolution thinks it occurs only by natural selection. It occurs by mutation and random genetic drift as well as by natural selection.)

Now, I share the same views as Northern Christian. I also have a question. Do you believe in evolution (posed at those who do, obviously) because of your wonderous scientific knowledge, or because it is what the world believes?

I don't have wondrous scientific knowledge, but I have fair to middling scientific knowledge (for a scientist, that is), and that's why I accept evolution. No one has ever offered a consistent alternative as a way of understanding the data in my field (genetics). If you think you've got one, by all means offer it.

I don't wish to brag here, but I have an extremely high IQ, and I find evolution to be highly illogical and ridiculous in all aspects, whether one takes a macro-biological approach or micro-biological. I also know, and know of many other Christians with very high IQ's who share exactly the same view.
Again, I'm saying this just to tell you that there are people out there who think enormously about this, and do not follow through with the same conclusions. Not only is creation gods view, and what may potentially bring you to an eternal life, it is also highly logical.

Your IQ is irrelevant. The overwhelming consensus of those who actually study the data and do the science is that evolution is perfectly reasonable, and well supported by the data.

There are two kinds of evolutionists; The ignorant and the ones who just want a "way out". Theistic evolutionists seem to be both.

I am a theistic evolutionist. Please support your claims that I am ignorant and that I want a "way out".

 

[sfs]

Anyway, back to Blaise.
Pascal was a genius and he made a wager. Why don't you, with your infinitely smaller minds (devolution) choose to take this wager?

In the form it's been presented here, I don't take the wager because I believe God cares about truth, and for me knowingly to reject the truth out of fear would dishonor him.

 

[Cedric Noggins]

Have you ever encountered a beneficial mutation?
The data supporting evolution is historical evidence. The biological analysis must be done on fossils, and that which is done to determine genetic differences due to evolution automatically assumes evolution to be truth. This is both dogmatic and unscientific.
I can gaurantee you that any geological data taken from fossils is highly inaccurate. Any geological data taken from any rock, whether it be igneous, metamorphic or sedimentary will be highly inaccurate.
Geology and cosmology are the true basis of evolution. If the universe is proven to be less than 15 billion years old, evolution is impossible, barring divine intervention. What if I told you that for a fact, the universe is 6000 years old. You would most definitely have to re-consider evolution.
I can tell you that the universe is 6000 years old (there abouts). C is decreasing. Look up "Doubly Special Relativity", this is an addition to Einsteins theory.
Why are fossils shown to be millions of years old?
Radiometric dating methods are based upon "standard conditions", which do not exist. Decreasing C does not result in "standard conditions".

 

[Cedric Noggins]

Does God not see more truth in his words than in that of man?

 

[JohnR7]

Let's say that God created the world as detailed in the Bible. A believer who accepted the Biblical explaination of the origins of the world has nothing to fear in this circumstance, because he/she trusted the word of God. A theistic evolutionist who did not believe the Bible may be in trouble here. God may not allow someone who did not believe in the Bible into the Kingdom of heaven.

You make trusting in the Bible sound like a work of the flesh that is nothing but filthy rages in the eyes of God. Saving faith is a work of the Holy Spirit of God in us. If we are saved, then we will produce all nine of the fruits of the Spirit.

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

Matthew 3:7-8b Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [8] Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,

 

[wblastyn]

Evolution is not random???????????
RANDOM mutations!
hehe... The environment does not "select" anything! Natural selection results in diversity among species and genus, but nothing large!
Random mutations are never beneficial, never!
Anyway, back to Blaise.
Pascal was a genius and he made a wager. Why don't you, with your infinitely smaller minds (devolution) choose to take this wager?

The mutation is get is random yes, but there will always be errors in copying DNA so there will be plenty of mutations. The mutations are then selected for or against depending if they allow the organism to survive and reproduce or not, which is not random. Someone used this example here before but it's like pouring out a huge container of Skittles into a smaller container at random, just enough so it fills the smaller one. Then you select which one to eat from the smaller one based on the colour of the Skittle, so the selection is not random.

I thought you said evoluton was illogical, both micro- and macro- ? Now here you are saying changes occur in the genus and species, which is evolution.

Darwins book is called "Origin of the Species..." so changes in genus and species is still evolution. If you give them long enough eventually the small changes build up to larger ones.

Your arrogant attitude is getting tired. Anyway, I don't chose his wager because it's flawed. What if God sent creationists for hell for ignoring His creation and being inconsistant. I mean, you don't take verses which imply the earth is flat literally do you? Why...because we know the earth is not flat based on what science tells us. But when science tells us we evolved from other animals over millions of years you don't like it, so you hold on to your literal interpretation. What if God sends you to hell for pushing scientists and other educated people away from Christianity by insisting you have to accept a literal Genesis to be a Christian.

Anyway, the Nicene Creed is a summary of Christianity and it doesn't say anything about having to believe literal Genesis, so I don't think God would send anyone to hell for believe Genesis is literal or not.

 

[wblastyn]

Have you ever encountered a beneficial mutation?
The data supporting evolution is historical evidence. The biological analysis must be done on fossils, and that which is done to determine genetic differences due to evolution automatically assumes evolution to be truth. This is both dogmatic and unscientific.
I can gaurantee you that any geological data taken from fossils is highly inaccurate. Any geological data taken from any rock, whether it be igneous, metamorphic or sedimentary will be highly inaccurate.
Geology and cosmology are the true basis of evolution. If the universe is proven to be less than 15 billion years old, evolution is impossible, barring divine intervention. What if I told you that for a fact, the universe is 6000 years old. You would most definitely have to re-consider evolution.
I can tell you that the universe is 6000 years old (there abouts). C is decreasing. Look up "Doubly Special Relativity", this is an addition to Einsteins theory.
Why are fossils shown to be millions of years old?
Radiometric dating methods are based upon "standard conditions", which do not exist. Decreasing C does not result in "standard conditions".

Yes, the mutation that allows bacteria to become resistant to antibiotics is beneficial.

The "data" supporting Christianity is historical, the Bible was written thousands of years ago, does that make it untrue?

Also, biologists can experiment with fruit fly and cause those to evolve into "meat" fly, so it's not just historical evidence.

Why do you speak with authority, when you obviously have none. You still haven't explained why theistic evolutionists (ie most of Christianity) are looking for "a way out"?