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Part II of Angelo M. Codevilla's "America's ruling class and the perils of revolution

Jul 5, 2010
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Important as they are, our political divisions are the iceberg's tip.
My comment: This does not make sense to me. Our political divisions are important and yet they are leading America to its “iceberg’s tip.” That seems like saying, “This cancer is killing me, but it is an important part of who I am.” Maybe I am reading too much into that first line. It just seemed a bit illogical.

When pollsters ask the American people whether they are likely to vote Republican or Democrat in the next presidential election, Republicans win growing pluralities. But whenever pollsters add the preferences "undecided," "none of the above," or "tea party," these win handily, the Democrats come in second, and the Republicans trail far behind. That is because while most of the voters who call themselves Democrats say that Democratic officials represent them well, only a fourth of the voters who identify themselves as Republicans tell pollsters that Republican officeholders represent them well. Hence officeholders, Democrats and Republicans, gladden the hearts of some one-third of the electorate -- most Democratic voters, plus a few Republicans.
My comment: This is the rock and the hard place of American politics for me. When left with two choices, Republicans or Democrats, Republicans are the better choice. Yet, as this article goes on to point out, when given other choices they often win out in polls with the main two choices finishing neither first nor second. A political climate that fosters viable candidates from multiple parties would be most desirable. I have really become a fan of the Constitution Party the more I read about it. My main problem with them is their seeming weakness when it comes to supporting freedom around the world both for moral reasons and as a means of proactive self-defense. I also know that a vote for a candidate from a party without much notoriety and the backing to get them across the finish line is an unofficial vote for the greater of two sometimes-shabby choices like those that we had in the 2008 presidential campaign. That is not to say that I am ashamed of being a Republican. There are times where I get frustrated with them enough to say that when they abandon their conservative principles in favor of taking a“bipartisan” approach. Nonetheless, the Republican Party is still my party of choice for me right now. As Ronald Reagan said in his 1975 Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) speech, ”Is it a third party we need, or is it a new and revitalized second party, raising a banner of no pale pastels, but bold colors which make it unmistakably clear where we stand on all of the issues troubling the people?”(“Let them go their way” on March 1, 1975) I know that those who have taken that leap and chosen to vote for third party candidates would object and say that the reason why there is not a viable multiple-party system today is precisely this kind of thinking. They do have a point, which is why I still ponder the idea of joining a purer conservative party that does not abandon principle for expediency. However, right now I remain a Republican in hopes that conservatives will win the battle for the soul of the Republican Party and return it to its conservative roots. That is the only way it will achieve long-term electoral success.

This means that Democratic politicians are the ruling class's prime legitimate representatives and that because Republican politicians are supported by only a fourth of their voters while the rest vote for them reluctantly, most are aspirants for a junior role in the ruling class. In short, the ruling class has a party, the Democrats. But some two-thirds of Americans -- a few Democratic voters, most Republican voters, and all independents -- lack a vehicle in electoral politics.
My comment: Amen.

Sooner or later, well or badly, that majority's demand for representation will be filled. Whereas in 1968 Governor George Wallace's taunt "there ain't a dime's worth of difference" between the Republican and Democratic parties resonated with only 13.5 percent of the American people, in 1992 Ross Perot became a serious contender for the presidency (at one point he was favored by 39 percent of Americans vs. 31 percent for G.H.W. Bush and 25 percent for Clinton) simply by speaking ill of the ruling class. Today, few speak well of the ruling class. Not only has it burgeoned in size and pretense, but it also has undertaken wars it has not won, presided over a declining economy and mushrooming debt, made life more expensive, raised taxes, and talked down to the American people. Americans' conviction that the ruling class is as hostile as it is incompetent has solidified. The polls tell us that only about a fifth of Americans trust the government to do the right thing. The rest expect that it will do more harm than good and are no longer afraid to say so.

While Europeans are accustomed to being ruled by presumed betters whom they distrust, the American people's realization of being ruled like Europeans shocked this country into well nigh revolutionary attitudes. But only the realization was new. The ruling class had sunk deep roots in America over decades before 2008. Machiavelli compares serious political diseases to the Aetolian fevers -- easy to treat early on while they are difficult to discern, but virtually untreatable by the time they become obvious.
 

Harpuia

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So this tells me that Democrats are left in our American political spectrum (I heard that are center-right globally, but I have little experience in that), Republicans are in the middle. Conservative between the two choose Republicans BUT want a party that pushes to the right of their choices.

Thing is, moderates don't vote Republican either. So I can't really call a Republican "moderate", can I?
 
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Iceberg's tip means "just a small/superficial part" - a reference to the fact that a much larger amount of an iceberg is below the surface of the water.

I definitely agree that two party systems are inadequate for democratic represention.

I don't, however, see how the analysis in the second paragraph leads to the conclusions in the third.

The fourth paragraph is puzzling as a result. Going from the third paragraph, it is asserted that Democrats are the "party of the ruling class" - yet the ruling class has "undertaken wars it has not won, presided over a declining economy and mushrooming debt..." - hang on a second, wouldn't that be the Republican party who did all that in the first decade of the 21st century?

The problem is not that the ruling class has a party and that party is the Democrats. the problem is that the ruling class has two parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, the differences between them in practical policy terms are few and they have largely failed to run your country in the interests of the people.

The notion that this is "being ruled like Europeans" is a meaningless attempt to pander to those who have an irrational antipathy towards Europe. In actual fact many European countries use proportional representation mechanisms which allow a wide variety of parties to be elected, not only giving the population more chance of voting for someone who they feel represents their interests, but giving those representatives power in decision making in line with the size of their constituent base.
 
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So this tells me that Democrats are left in our American political spectrum (I heard that are center-right globally, but I have little experience in that), Republicans are in the middle. Conservative between the two choose Republicans BUT want a party that pushes to the right of their choices.

Thing is, moderates don't vote Republican either. So I can't really call a Republican "moderate", can I?

Not all Republicans are in the middle. The big battle in the Republican Party right now is between the John McCain/Olympia Snowe types who will bend over backwards to be part of the ruling class and the Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh/Bobby Jindal types that want to take control of the party back and bring it back to where it should be. Other conservatives see more value in joining a third party that better represents their ideals.
 
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Iceberg's tip means "just a small/superficial part" - a reference to the fact that a much larger amount of an iceberg is below the surface of the water.

I definitely agree that two party systems are inadequate for democratic represention.

I don't, however, see how the analysis in the second paragraph leads to the conclusions in the third.

The fourth paragraph is puzzling as a result. Going from the third paragraph, it is asserted that Democrats are the "party of the ruling class" - yet the ruling class has "undertaken wars it has not won, presided over a declining economy and mushrooming debt..." - hang on a second, wouldn't that be the Republican party who did all that in the first decade of the 21st century?

The problem is not that the ruling class has a party and that party is the Democrats. the problem is that the ruling class has two parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, the differences between them in practical policy terms are few and they have largely failed to run your country in the interests of the people.

The notion that this is "being ruled like Europeans" is a meaningless attempt to pander to those who have an irrational antipathy towards Europe. In actual fact many European countries use proportional representation mechanisms which allow a wide variety of parties to be elected, not only giving the population more chance of voting for someone who they feel represents their interests, but giving those representatives power in decision making in line with the size of their constituent base.

Thanks for answering the thing about the "iceberg's tip" I was apparently missing.

Democrats may be the party of the ruling class, but not all ruling class and people who desire to be considered part of the ruling class are Democrats.

Republicans did spend money like Democrats when they had all the power. Now Democrats are spending money like themselves on steroids. The debt, budget deficits, etc... were nowhere near as bad under George W. Bush's Administration as they are under President Obama's. As far as the wars go, Afghanistan is now Obama's war. It is the war they kept saying we should have been fighting all along instead of the war in Iraq. This is the one they wanted. Now look at how "well" things are going there. I totally agree with the idea that the United States had every right to defend itself against those responsible for 9/11 and those who supported the ones responsible. I do question whether or not long-term freedom is possible in a country dominated by Islam, but that does not mean I am no longer pro-military action under the right circumstances.
 
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DuneSoldier

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Not all Republicans are in the middle. The big battle in the Republican Party right now is between the John McCain/Olympia Snowe types who will bend over backwards to be part of the ruling class and the Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh/Bobby Jindal types that want to take control of the party back and bring it back to where it should be. Other conservatives see more value in joining a third party that better represents their ideals.

I'm further to the left than the current administration (to the right on other things though), at least currently. I agree with you it would be good to see multiple parties on both the left and right sides of the isles. The problem is that you need to force both of them to break up at the same time. Because the first party to break up is literally handing all the power to the party that didn't.

What I find interesting in your article is I've always felt the democratic party was a loose coalition of many different types of people. When I was a conservative though I felt the republicans were more monolithic, in terms of a party and what they stand for.
 
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Thanks for answering the thing about the "iceberg's tip" I was apparently missing.

No problem :)

Democrats may be the party of the ruling class, but not all ruling class and people who desire to be considered part of the ruling class are Democrats.

Then how are the Democrats the party of the ruling class?

The Democrats are a party of the ruling class. As are the Republicans.

The second paragraph of what you posted simply states that people who vote for the Democrats are, in general, more satisifed that their views are being reflected by the party than those who vote for Republicans.

I fail to understand how this fact results in the conclusion of the third paragraph, that "Democratic politicians are the ruling class's prime legitimate representatives". How can polling of the entire population about party identification lead to the conclusion that the Democrats are the party of the "ruling class" (a subsection of the entire population).

Maybe the poll result just reflects the fact that the Democrats have done a better job of creating a broad base of support for their positions than the Republicans have?

Can you explain to me how what is presented in the second paragraph justifies the conclusions of the third paragraph?

Republicans did spend money like Democrats when they had all the power. Now Democrats are spending money like themselves on steroids. The debt, budget deficits, etc... were nowhere near as bad under George W. Bush's Administration as they are under President Obama's.

Obama has simply continued the policies that Bush himself started to address a crisis that was only just beginning during his term. Naturally, as that crisis continued, the spending patterns continued, the debt increased. The point here is that, when it comes to policy, there is little to no difference between Obama and Bush when it comes to addressing the financial crisis. If Republicans were still in power, the effect on the deficit would be minor to nil.

And actually, if we take a longer period of time as our guide, it actually becomes clear that it is the Republicans rather than the Democrats who have presided over increased budget deficits:

Natl_Debt_Chart_367c0.jpg


So really, I don't see the point of making a distinction between the two parties on this issue. The national debt has only been heading one way for some time - exponentially upwards - and budget defecits have tended up during Republican presidencies - only going down i nthe last few decades under Bill Clinton. The current administration is simply continuing the policies of the previous one.

Any attempt to fabricate some sort of telling difference here is, in my view, nothing but misplaced partisanship.

As far as the wars go, Afghanistan is now Obama's war. It is the war they kept saying we should have been fighting all along instead of the war in Iraq. This is the one they wanted. Now look at how "well" things are going there. I totally agree with the idea that the United States had every right to defend itself against those responsible for 9/11 and those who supported the ones responsible. I do question whether or not long-term freedom is possible in a country dominated by Islam, but that does not mean I am no longer pro-military action under the right circumstances.

It certainly is Obama's war now and he needs to take responsibility for what happens now and in the future.

That fact does not, however, remove all Republican responsibility for what happened in the past.

The two parties represent largely the same interests and have engaged in largely the same policies, when it comes to foreign engagements of the military or public spending. There is no legitimate reason to label one party or the other as "the party of the ruling class" - they both fit the bill.
 
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