THE WORD "PAROUSIA" IN Matthew 24 AND REST OF NT

[LittleLambofJesus]

Why did Jesus use the word "Parousia" only in Matthew 24 of the Gospels?

Matthew 24:
3 He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `Tell us, when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

27 for even as the lightning/star-flashes/astraph <796> comes-out from risings, and is appearing till of west,
thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man;

37 For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man

39 and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away.
Thus shall be also the parousia <3952> of the Son of the Man.


James implies the Parousia was imminent:

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);

Peter describes it as the "day of God":

2 Peter 3:12 -
waiting for and hasting to the parousian <3952> of the day of God,
by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved,
and the elements with burning heat shall melt;

Which is shown in Revelation 16:14:

Rev 16:14
For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and[fn] of the whole world,
to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

STRONGS NT 3952: παρουσία
παρουσία, παρουσίας, ἡ (παρών, παροῦσα, παρουσον, from πάρειμι which see) in Greek authors from the Tragg., Thucydides, Plato down; not found in the Sept.;
1. presence: 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 10:10; opposed to ἀπουσίᾳ, Philippians 2:12 (2 Macc. 15:21; (Aristotle, phys. 2, 3, p. 195a, 14; metaphys. 4, 2, p. 1013b, 14; meteor. 4, 5, p. 382a, 33 etc.)).
2. the presence of one coming, hence, the coming, arrival, advent, ((Polybius 3, 41, 1. 8); Judith 10:18; 2 Macc. 8:12; (Hermas, sim. 5, 5, 3 [ET])): 2 Corinthians 7:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:9 (cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:8 ἀποκαλυφθήσεται; ἡ... πάλιν πρός τινα, of a return, Philippians 1:26. In the N. T. especially of the advent, i. e. the future, visible, return from heaven of Jesus, the Messiah, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God: Matthew 24:3; ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου (27), 37, 39; τοῦ κυρίου, 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4; Χριστοῦ, 2 Peter 1:16; αὐτοῦ, 1 Corinthians 15:23; (1 Thessalonians 2:19); 2 Thessalonians 2:8; 2 Peter 3:4; (1 John 2:28); τῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμέρας, 2 Peter 3:12. It is called in ecclesiastical writings ἡ δευτέρᾳ παρουσία, Ev. Nicod. c. 22 at the end; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 52 (where see Otto's note); dialog contra Trypho, chapters 40, 110, 121; and is opposed to ἡ πρώτη παρουσία which took place in the incarnation, birth, and earthly career of Christ, Justin Martyr, dialog contra Trypho, chapters 52, 121, cf. 14, 32, 49, etc.; (cf. Ignatius ad Phil. 9 [ET] (and Lightfoot)); see ἔλευσις.
THAYER’S GREEK LEXICON, Electronic Database.


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I am puttin up the verses that use the greek word #3952
and separated the ones used with persons from the ones use for Jesus's parouia/advent.

It is used only in the Epistles outside of the Gospels.
John, James, Peter and Paul.

Young's Literal Translation. [He is consistent with using the word "presence".]

presence _____ used with the presence of people

1Co 16:17
and I rejoice over the presence of Stephanas, and Fortunatus, and Achaicus, because the lack of you did these fill up;

2Co 7:
6 but He who is comforting the cast-down -- God -- He did comfort us in the presence of Titus;
7 and not only in his presence, but also in the comfort with which he was comforted over you, declaring to us your longing desire, your lamentation, your zeal for me, so that the more I did rejoice,
2Co 10:10
'because the letters indeed -- saith one -- are weighty and strong, and the bodily presence weak, and the speech despicable.'

Phl 1:26
that your boasting may abound in Christ Jesus in me through my presence again to you.
Phl 2:12
So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,

=============================================================

presence, ________ used with Jesus

2 Peter 3:12 is the only verse to use the phrase "the presence of the day of GOD"

2Pe 3:
4 and saying, 'Where is the promise of His presence?
for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;'
12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God,
by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved,
and the elements with burning heat shall melt;

It appears it is only used in 1 other verse of the NT?

Rev 16:14
for they are spirits of demons, doing signs -- which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to bring them together to the battle of that great day of God the Almighty; --

1Co 15:23
and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ,
afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,

1Th 2:19
for what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing?
are not even ye before our Lord Jesus Christ in His presence?
1Th 3:13
to the establishing your hearts blameless in sanctification before our God and Father,
in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

1Th 4:15
for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord --
may not precede those asleep,

1Th 5:23
and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body,
be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

2Th 2:
1 And we ask you, brethren, in regard to the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and of our gathering together unto him,
8 and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,
and shall destroy with the manifestation of His presence,
9 him, Whose presence is according to the working of the Adversary,
in all power, and signs, and lying wonders,

Jas 5:
7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the presence of the Lord;
lo, the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth,
being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
8 be patient, ye also; establish your hearts,
because the presence of the Lord hath drawn nigh;

2Pe 1:16
For, skilfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ,
but eye-witnesses having become of his majesty --

1Jo 2:28
And now, little children, remain in him, that when he may be manifested, we may have boldness,
and may not be ashamed before him, in his presence;

parousiaV <3952> 6 times.

Matthew 24:3;
Philippians 1:26;
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8;
James 5:7
2 Peter 3:4

Parousia <3952> 15 times.

Matthew 24:27-39;
1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Corinthians 16:17;
2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 2 Corinthians 10:10;
Philippians 2:12;
1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 5:23;
2 Thessalonians 2:9;
James 5:8,
1 John 2:28

parousian <3952> 3 times

1 Thessalonians 4:15;
2 Peter 1:16;
2 Peter 3:12

to be continued.................................

.

.

 

[Radagast]

Why did Jesus use the word "Parousia" only in Matthew 24 of the Gospels?

Because Matthew 24 is the primary gospel passage explicitly describing that subject.

I am puttin up the verses that use the greek word #3952
and separated the ones used with persons from the ones use for Jesus's parouia/advent.

Young's Literal Translation. [He is consistent with using the word "presence".]

That's the same Greek word, but used with a quite different meaning.

parousiaV <3952> 6 times.

That's both meanings together, but horrible pseudo-Greek again. It should be parousias, the genitive case (of or by a "coming").

Parousia <3952> 15 times.

And whatever web resource you're using, please, I beg you, throw it away as useless.

This is mixing up two different forms of the word: 6 uses of the nominative case (parousia, the subject of a sentence) with 9 uses of the dative (parousiai, by or at a coming).

See BLB.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So the "parousia" of Matthew 24 is the same as the Day of the Lord/God.
That would make the Olivet Discourse the Great Day of the Lord Almighty

This part of the parousia appears to be describing the 6th seal in Revelation?

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:29

Mat 24:29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Mar 13:24
“But in those days, after that tribulation,
the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
Luk 21:25
“And there will be signs in the sun,
in the moon,
and in the stars;
and on the land distress of nations,
with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

Rev 6:12
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold,[fn]
there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair,
and the moon became like blood.

Coincidentally, it was the 6th hour when darkness fell upon the land of Judea at the Cross.

Matthew 27:45
From yet sixth hour darkness became upon all the Land till hour of the ninth.
Mark 15:33
Now when the sixth hour had come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Luke 23:44
Was yet sixth hour and darkness became over the whole land til hour of ninth.

Act 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.

1Th 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

2Pe 3:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,
in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise,
and the elements will melt with fervent heat;
both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.[fn]
12 waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God,
by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved,
and the elements with burning heat shall melt;

.

 

[Revealing Times]

So the "parousia" of Matthew 24 is the same as the Day of the Lord/God.
That would make the Olivet Discourse the Great Day of the Lord Almighty

You are CONFLATING two different things brother. I will bookmark this work as it will be helpful, but I think you miss the forest for the trees here.

PRESENCE is a keyword, but remember the Lord is ever-present everywhere, God and Jesus are omnipresent. So "WHAT IS PRESENT" in any verse is what is telling in each verse.

The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath, so IF the Day of the Lord is Parousia or PRESENT then God/Jesus doesn't have to show up per say, Jesus just has to Open/Release the Seals so that the Day of the Lord us UPON THE WORLD or Present.

When Jesus Raptures us in Matthew 24:37 he will be NEAR/Present, in the Clouds (Rev. 14:14) calling us to Heaven, thus he's PRESENT in our atmosphere. When Jesus is parousia in Matt. 24:27 that is Jesus being PRESENT on earth at the Second Coming, and the Church/Bride will come with him from Heaven on White Horses.

So I think you conflate all of these things brother. What is PRESENT, is what is being spoke of. Be that the Day of God's Wrath. Jesus coming to Rapture us or the Second Coming of Jesus.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are CONFLATING two different things brother. I will bookmark this work as it will be helpful, but I think you miss the forest for the trees here.

PRESENCE is a keyword, but remember the Lord is ever-present everywhere, God and Jesus are omnipresent. So "WHAT IS PRESENT" in any verse is what is telling in each verse.

The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath, so IF the Day of the Lord is Parousia or PRESENT then God/Jesus doesn't have to show up per say, Jesus just has to Open/Release the Seals so that the Day of the Lord us UPON THE WORLD or Present.

When Jesus Raptures us in Matthew 24:37 he will be NEAR/Present, in the Clouds (Rev. 14:14) calling us to Heaven, thus he's PRESENT in our atmosphere. When Jesus is parousia in Matt. 24:27 that is Jesus being PRESENT on earth at the Second Coming, and the Church/Bride will come with him from Heaven on White Horses.

So I think you conflate all of these things brother. What is PRESENT, is what is being spoke of. Be that the Day of God's Wrath. Jesus coming to Rapture us or the Second Coming of Jesus.

When Jesus Raptures us in Matthew 24:37 he will be NEAR/Present, in the Clouds (Rev. 14:14) calling us to Heaven, thus he's PRESENT in our atmosphere. When Jesus is parousia in Matt. 24:27 that is Jesus being PRESENT on earth at the Second Coming, and the Church/Bride will come with him from Heaven on White Horses.

The "days of Noah" is shown in both Matt and Luke [Mark never mentions Noah]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:37 Luke 17:22

Matthew 24:37
As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.

Luke 17:26

“Just as it was in the days of Noah,† so it will be in the days of the Son of Man:

So is the "....eagles gathering, there shall be the bodies...." [of which I have a thread on]

"Where the body/carcass is, there the eagles be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17 70ad and Revelation
Matthew 24:28 Luke 17:37

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the corpse<4430> may be,
there shall the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.

Luke 17:37
And they answering say to him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them,
'Where the body<4983> is, there will the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.'

=========================================================

Matthew 24:3
He is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `be telling to us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the full end/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

4930. sunteleia prefix #4862 and root word #5055
soon-tel'-i-ah; from (4931) (συντελέω); entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation): — end.
4862. sun a primary preposition
denoting union; with or together; by association, companionship
5055. teleo tel-eh'-o from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

4930. sunteleia
It occurs 6 times in 6 verses

The Harvest [which is shown in Revelation 14]

Mat 13:
39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil,
and the harvest is a full end of the age,
and the reapers are Messengers.
40
'As then the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire,
so shall it be in the full end of this age,
49
so shall it be in the full end of the age,
the Messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Rev 14:15 - and another Messenger did come forth out of the Sanctuary crying in a great voice to Him Who is sitting upon the cloud,
'Send forth! Thy sickle and reap! because come to Thee hath the hour of reaping, because ripe hath been the harvest of the land;'

Mat 28:20
teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

Hebrews uses the plural form "ages" in this verse

Heb 9:26
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the consummation<4930> of the ages,
for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

G4930 συντέλεια - Strong's Greek Lexicon

Derivation: from G4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end. STRONGS NT 4930: συντέλεια συντέλεια, συντελείας, ἡ (συντελής), completion, consummation, end (so in Greek writings from Polybius on; the Sept. chiefly for כָּלָה; for קֵץ in Daniel 12:4, 13; in other senses from Aeschylus down): αἰῶνος or τοῦ αἰῶνος, Matthew 13:39, 40 L T Tr WH, Matthew 13:49; Matthew 24:3; 28:20; τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου, Matthew 13:40 R G; τῶν αἰώνων, Hebrews 9:26 (see αἰών, 3, p. 19b bottom (cf. Hermas, sim. 9, 12, 3 [ET] and Hilgenfeld at the passage)); καιροῦ and καιρῶν, Daniel 9:27; Daniel 12:4; τῶν ἡμερῶν, ibid. Daniel 12:13; ἀνθρώπου, of his death, Sir. 11:27 (25); cf. Sirach 21:9.

A form of #4930 is used in Hebrews 8:8 concerning the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31

Hebrews 8:8
"For faulting to them He is saying 'behold! days are coming, is saying Lord,
and I shall be consummating/sunteleo<4931> upon the House of Israel and upon the House of Judah a New Covenant,

Jeremiah 3:31
Behold! days, ones coming, a declaration of Yahweh
and I cut a New Covenant with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah

 

[parousia70]

The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath, so IF the Day of the Lord is Parousia or PRESENT then God/Jesus doesn't have to show up per say, Jesus just has to Open/Release the Seals so that the Day of the Lord us UPON THE WORLD or Present.

You sound like a preterist.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Matthew and Mark mention the Mount of Olives.

Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives,...............

Mark 13:3
And as he is sitting at the mount of the Olives,.............

Luke doesn't mention it in his 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourses

Luke 19:
41 And as He nears, beholding the City,
and He laments over Her, 42 saying, "That if Thou knew and Thou, even indeed in this day, the toward peace of Thee, now yet it was hid from Thy eyes.
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee,
and Thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work to Thee
and shall be encompassing Thee,

Luke 21:20
Whenever yet ye may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by armies
then be knowing that come nighdesolating of Her...........

Luke 23:
28 And having turned to them, Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem! do not be weeping for Me,
rather be weeping for yourselves and for your children.
29 That behold! are coming days in which they shall be declaring, ‘blessed/happy are the barren ones and the wombs which not bear, and breasts that never nursed’

Mount of Olives is only mentioned in 1 verse of the OT

Zechariah 14:4
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.

Coincidentally, that is where the 10th Roman legion was stationed around 70ad Jerusalem:

Legio X Fretensis - Wikipedia

https://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/timeline_military.html

........................

.................................

 

[Revealing Times]

You sound like a preterist.

Why because you can't understand what put forth ? I don't use labels, but I know what they are, and all you have to do is read a few of my comments to know you are just spouting off without any comprehension to what you are saying. You sound like someone that just says things while just guessing. I pegged you well. You of course missed the mark.

 

[Revealing Times]

The "days of Noah" is shown in both Matt and Luke [Mark never mentions Noah]

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matthew 24:37 Luke 17:22


So is the "....eagles gathering, there shall be the bodies...." [of which I have a thread on]

"Where the body/carcass is, there the eagles be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17 70ad and Revelation
Matthew 24:28 Luke 17:37



=========================================================

Matthew 24:3
He is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying, `be telling to us!
when? shall these be
and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the full end/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'

4930. sunteleia prefix #4862 and root word #5055
soon-tel'-i-ah; from (4931) (συντελέω); entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation): — end.
4862. sun a primary preposition
denoting union; with or together; by association, companionship
5055. teleo tel-eh'-o from 5056;
to end, i.e. complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt):--accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.

4930. sunteleia
It occurs 6 times in 6 verses

The Harvest [which is shown in Revelation 14]

Mat 13:
39
and the enemy who sowed them is the devil,
and the harvest is a full end of the age,
and the reapers are Messengers.
40
'As then the darnel is gathered up, and is burned with fire,
so shall it be in the full end of this age,
49
so shall it be in the full end of the age,
the Messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Mat 28:20
teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days -- till the full end of the age.'

Hebrews uses the plural form "ages" in this verse

Heb 9:26
since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the consummation<4930> of the ages,
for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;

G4930 συντέλεια - Strong's Greek Lexicon

Derivation: from G4931;
entire completion, i.e. consummation (of a dispensation):--end. STRONGS NT 4930: συντέλεια συντέλεια, συντελείας, ἡ (συντελής), completion, consummation, end (so in Greek writings from Polybius on; the Sept. chiefly for כָּלָה; for קֵץ in Daniel 12:4, 13; in other senses from Aeschylus down): αἰῶνος or τοῦ αἰῶνος, Matthew 13:39, 40 L T Tr WH, Matthew 13:49; Matthew 24:3; 28:20; τοῦ αἰῶνος τούτου, Matthew 13:40 R G; τῶν αἰώνων, Hebrews 9:26 (see αἰών, 3, p. 19b bottom (cf. Hermas, sim. 9, 12, 3 [ET] and Hilgenfeld at the passage)); καιροῦ and καιρῶν, Daniel 9:27; Daniel 12:4; τῶν ἡμερῶν, ibid. Daniel 12:13; ἀνθρώπου, of his death, Sir. 11:27 (25); cf. Sirach 21:9.

A form of #4930 is used in Hebrews 8:8 concerning the New Covenant of Jeremiah 31

Hebrews 8:8
"For faulting to them He is saying 'behold! days are coming, is saying Lord,
and I shall be consummating/sunteleo<4931> upon the House of Israel and upon the House of Judah a New Covenant,

Jeremiah 3:31
Behold! days, ones coming, a declaration of Yahweh
and I cut a New Covenant with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah

Was there supposed to be a reply in that ? I did not see one brother.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Was there supposed to be a reply in that ? I did not see one brother.

The reply was to your mention of Matt 24:37 brother, but you failed to show Luke's "days of Noah".

When Jesus Raptures us in Matthew 24:37 he will be NEAR/Present, in the Clouds (Rev. 14:14) calling us to Heaven,

I noticed a lot of Christians tend to leave out Luke when mentioning Matthew 24, so I am just providing the verse in Luke 17 in case others are not aware that it is in a different chapter than Luke 21

Matthew 24:37
As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.

Luke 17:26
Just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man:

It is the same with "where the eagles are gathered", different chapter of Luke

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...urses-harmonized.8076438/page-3#post-73057703

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the corpse<4430> may be,
there shall the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.

Luke 17:37
And they answering say to him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them,
'Where the body<4983> is, there will the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together.'

"Where the body/carcass is, there the eagles be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17 70ad and Revelation
Matthew 24:28 Luke 17:37


.

 

[parousia70]

Why because you can't understand what put forth ?

No, I Understand perfectly.
It's just that you're the first futurist I've seen here on CF in 17 years claim that Jesus does not have to be Physically present at His Parousia.

That is typically an exclusively preterist position.

Maybe the wall of partition is finally beginning to crumble....Keep up the good work!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Just found a nice picture of the parousia of Jesus:

Isaiah 3:1
Look, the sovereign LORD who commands armies is about to remove from Jerusalem and Judah
every source of security, including all the food and water,

Luke 13:
34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those who are sent to you!
35 “See! Your house is left to you desolate
Luke 21:20
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near.

Revelation 18:
14 And the armies who were in heaven, having been clothed in pure, white, fine linen were following Him upon white horses.
19 And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying
"Woe! Woe! the great cCity, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated.
.......................................

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
So the "parousia" of Matthew 24 is the same as the Day of the Lord/God.
That would make the Olivet Discourse the Great Day of the Lord Almighty

Revealing Times said: ↑
The Day of the Lord is God's Wrath, so IF the Day of the Lord is Parousia or PRESENT then God/Jesus doesn't have to show up per say, Jesus just has to Open/Release the Seals so that the Day of the Lord us UPON THE WORLD or Present.

You sound like a preterist.

Revealing Times said: ↑
Why because you can't understand what put forth ?

No, I Understand perfectly.
It's just that you're the first futurist I've seen here on CF in 17 years claim that Jesus does not have to be Physically present at His Parousia.

That is typically an exclusively preterist position.

Maybe the wall of partition is finally beginning to crumble....Keep up the good work!

Good reply..
We are always glad to welcome others into the truth of preterism

Heb 12:22
But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
Rev 14:1
And I saw, and behold! a Lamb having stood upon the mount Zion,
and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;
Mic 4:7
And I have set the halting for a remnant, And the far-off for a mighty nation,
And reigned hath Jehovah over them in mount Zion, From henceforth, and unto the age.

.............................

 

[BABerean2]

Good reply..
We are always glad to welcome others into the truth of preterism

Heb 12:22
But, ye came to Mount Zion, and to a city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,
Rev 14:1
And I saw, and behold! a Lamb having stood upon the mount Zion,
and with him an hundred forty-four thousands, having the name of his Father written upon their foreheads;
Mic 4:7
And I have set the halting for a remnant, And the far-off for a mighty nation,
And reigned hath Jehovah over them in mount Zion, From henceforth, and unto the age.
View attachment 249290


.............................

If you think we are now living in the eternal New Heavens and New Earth, can you explain what is going to happen to this rotten, sin-cursed world when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen fuel?

.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you think we are now living in the eternal New Heavens and New Earth, can you explain what is going to happen to this rotten, sin-cursed world when the Sun runs out of Hydrogen fuel

.

I suppose do what the Jews did in 70ad, flee and hide in the mountains and caves..........
FWIW, Revelation does not involve the whole global world!!
It is a great City in Judea/Israel..........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:16 then those in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Mark 13:14 Then those in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Luke 21:21 then those in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains;

Luke 23:30
"Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains 'be falling upon us!'
and to the hills<1015> 'cover<2572>us!'". [Hosea 10:8][Matthew 24:15]

Revelation 6:
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Whoa! that almost sounds similar to this verse? I will have to study on this. One seems to be viewed from the ground, and one in heaven........

Revelation 20:11
And I saw a great white throne.
And the One-sitting on it, from Who's Face fled the Land and the Heaven
and Place<5117> not was found to-them.

This passage seems to imply all of this happens before the 1000yr period. This is getting intricate now.............I see you quote this verse often.....

Rev 11:18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

Revelation 6:
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The 1st century Jews had 7yrs of warnings from the start of the Jewish wars in 63ad and the Jewish Christians probably remembered this:

Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of battle and rumors of battles. See that you are not troubled;
Mark 13:
7 “But when you hear of battles and rumors of battles, do not be troubled;
Luke 21:
9 “But when you hear of battles and commotions/tulmuts, do not be terrified;

..........................................

 

[BABerean2]

I suppose do what the Jews did in 70ad, flee and hide in the mountains and caves..........
FWIW, Revelation does not involve the whole global world!!
It is a great City in Judea/Israel..........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:16 then those in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Mark 13:14 Then those in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains
Luke 21:21 then those in Judea let them be fleeing! into the mountains;

Luke 23:30
"Then they shall be beginning to be saying to the mountains 'be falling upon us!'
and to the hills<1015> 'cover<2572>us!'". [Hosea 10:8][Matthew 24:15]

Revelation 6:
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks,
“Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Whoa! that almost sounds similar to this verse? I will have to study on this. One seems to be viewed from the ground, and one in heaven........

The characters found in Revelation 6 are the same characters found in Revelation 19.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

These texts do not seem to be describing the first century Christians, who did flee from Jerusalem before the final siege of 70AD.
Those mentioned in these texts are rebelling against God.

Have you have taken the characters out of their context in order to make the Book of Revelation fit your form of Preterism?

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The characters found in Revelation 6 are the same characters found in Revelation 19.

Have you have taken the characters out of their context in order to make the Book of Revelation fit your form of Preterism?
.

Getting kind of personal aren't you? [against the rules btw]

I just go by what the bible says, as do all preterists, futurists, amills, etc.............

Luke 21:
20 But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,
22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving<2240> days upon thee,
and thy enemies shall be casting up a rampart/siege-work<5482> to thee,
and shall be encompassing<4033> thee,
and pressing thee every which place.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the City.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance.............................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover..............................
======================================================
Deu 28:53
“You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege
and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you.
Jer 19:9
“And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his friend in the siege
and in the desperation with which their enemies and those who seek their lives shall drive them to despair.” '

.............................................

.

 

[BABerean2]

Getting kind of personal aren't you? [against the rules btw]

I just go by what the bible says, as do all preterists, futurists, amills, etc.............

Promoting Full-Preterism is also against the rules of this forum.

Christ was most certainly a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.

However, anyone who claims we are now living in the New Heavens and New Earth has gone to far toward Full-Preterism.

The scriptures clearly say there will be a future bodily resurrection and judgment of the dead, which did not happen during 70 AD.
(John 5:27-30, 2 Timothy 4:1, Revelation 11:18)


Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Promoting Full-Preterism is also against the rules of this forum.

Christ was most certainly a partial-preterist in the Olivet Discourse.

However, anyone who claims we are now living in the New Heavens and New Earth has gone to far toward Full-Preterism.

.

I was talking about the Olivet Discourse, which a lot of partial preterist, and some futurists, view as at least some/mostly fulfilled in 70ad [Especially Luke 21].........
however, they/we still believe in a future, Armegeddon, 1st resurrection, 1000yr period[which some believe they are in now], Gog Magog, then the final judgement.....
As far as I know, all of those are yet to be fulfilled, especially Gog-Magog.....

.