Papal Infallibility.

DArceri · Nov 26, 2006

You can keep pulling all that stuff out of some Catholic web site, and I could go to some Protestant areas on the web and we can continue to go back and forth on these issues, but bottom line is you are putting all your faith (salvation) in man's traditions (Pope's falliblity) while I'm putting my faith in Jesus Christ, the only one who is infallible.

John 14:6

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 Timothy 2:5

5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

susanann · Nov 26, 2006

HowardDean said:
I've been going to "protestant" churches for 28 years, and they all came donw on the "right side" on issues that you mention. They never say "My word is always right>" They tell us a good thing, to read God's word for ourself. We are not so dense as to not realize what it says, and detect errors.

I have been going to protestant churches much longer than that. I first started to be disillusioned about the protestant ministers when so many of them supported the vietnam war, and wanted us to go there and kill vietnamese.

Anyways, the catholic church says the same thing about people should read the bible themselves, and it was the caholics and the pope who, more or less, "gave" us the bible, i.e., put it together.

Bibles are given out at catholic confirmation, and the priest tells the children that he expects them to read it and to use it!!!!! and that the next time he sees the bibles he gave them he expects them "to be worn and dog eared" from heavy use.

Furthermore, if it is the Bible that you trust, then you will be very surprised to find out that it was the pope who (more or less) gave us the bible.

On the one hand, you seem to not trust the pope, yet on the other hand, you DO seem to trust the pope who gathered all the collected works and put the bible togther in the first place. For the most part, the bible (for the most part) that you are reading is a product of pope damascus and saint jerome (i.e catholics). The pope and the catholics that invented/compiled the bible, and determined exactly what religious writings should be a part of the bible. With few exceptions, nearly all protestants accept what the pope did and pretty much use the collected works of what the pope put together as being their bible also.

If you dont think the pope is infailable, why????? are you even reading the bible instead of the Koran or something else?

DArceri · Nov 26, 2006

susanann said:
I have been going to protestant churches much longer than that. I first started to be disillusioned about the protestant ministers when so many of them supported the vietnam war, and wanted us to go there and kill vietnamese.

Anyways, the catholic church says the same thing about people should read the bible themselves, and it was the caholics and the pope who, more or less, "gave" us the bible, i.e., put it together.

Bibles are given out at catholic confirmation, and the priest tells the children that he expects them to read it and to use it!!!!! and that the next time he sees the bibles he gave them he expects them "to be worn and dog eared" from heavy use.

Furthermore, if it is the Bible that you trust, then you will be very surprised to find out that it was the pope who (more or less) gave us the bible.

On the one hand, you seem to not trust the pope, yet on the other hand, you DO seem to trust the pope who gathered all the collected works and put the bible togther in the first place. For the most part, the bible (for the most part) that you are reading is a product of pope damascus and saint jerome (i.e catholics). The pope and the catholics that invented/compiled the bible, and determined exactly what religious writings should be a part of the bible. With few exceptions, nearly all protestants accept what the pope did and pretty much use the collected works of what the pope put together as being their bible also.

If you dont think the pope is infailable, why????? are you even reading the bible instead of the Koran or something else?

First of all the Catholic church didn't write scripture. Second of all, they kept adding to scripture via traditions or more writings to satisfy there traditions for eventual salvation (ie. 6 additional books). When Church dogma supercedes scripture, thats when the Church needs to examine itself. Third, where in the bible is the word Pope ever mentioned. What bible are you reading?

PS I was a Catholic for 40 years and never was told to open a bible.

icedtea · Nov 26, 2006

susanann said:
it was the pope who ( less) gave us the bible.

The pope and the catholics that invented the bible,

A pope did not.

Invented? Now thats sillier even.
Next thing ya know, you'll be telling me a pope invented the internet.

IgnatiusOfAntioch · Nov 26, 2006

darceri said:
PS I was a Catholic for 40 years and never was told to open a bible.

Really? Then you never went to Mass in 40 years because you can't get through the Mass without at least a half a dozen scripture readings.

DArceri · Nov 26, 2006

IgnatiusOfAntioch said:
Really? Then you never went to Mass in 40 years because you can't get through the Mass without at least a half a dozen scripture readings.

You mean Gospel snips...

The point is, the Church doesn't encourage you to read scripture period. They do the interpreting.

P.S Why isn't there Bibles in the pews. All you get is the church "Missal" of the month. The most I get out of it is the format of mass and when to stand, kneel, and sit.

susanann · Nov 26, 2006

darceri said:
First of all the Catholic church didn't write scripture. Second of all, they kept adding to scripture via traditions or more writings to satisfy there traditions for eventual salvation (ie. 6 additional books). When Church dogma supercedes scripture, thats when the Church needs to examine itself. Third, where in the bible is the word Pope ever mentioned. What bible are you reading?

PS I was a Catholic for 40 years and never was told to open a bible.

There was no "bible" at all before pope damascus.

If you like the bible, be thankful that a catholic pope decided that we needed a bible, and created one.

Before the pope put together the bible, all we had were hundreds of religious writings, and nobody was sure what was insprired, and what wasnt.

Pope damascus commissioned Jerome to go thru everything and to put together: the bible.

......so yes, it was a pope who "invented" the bible, since without the catholic pope, we wouldnt even have our bible.

I dont know of any catholic dogma that supercedes any scripture.

As far as salvation, the catholic statement on how salvation is obtained is the same as baptists and lutherans.

In your rush to complain about "6 additional books", you seem to ignore the other 95% of the bible put together by the pope that you DO use.

The simple fact is, that you/we wouldnt have any bible at all if it wasnt for the pope.

If you disagree with 5% of what catholics believe, or more likely maybe 2%, that still is no excuse to not give credit where it is due to the pope, esp in the pope giving us our bible.

icedtea · Nov 26, 2006

I can see you aren't "getting it."
We wouldn't have the bible were it not for this being we like to call God.
People are saved, know Jesus, know the Word of God without ever being catholic. Amazing indeed.
Why did that catholic bible inventor put in the verse about there being one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus?
Never mind.

DArceri · Nov 26, 2006

susanann said:
There was no "bible" at all before pope damascus.

If you like the bible, be thankful that a catholic pope decided that we needed a bible, and created one.

Before the pope put together the bible, all we had were hundreds of religious writings, and nobody was sure what was insprired, and what wasnt.

Pope damascus commissioned Jerome to go thru everything and to put together: the bible.

......so yes, it was a pope who "invented" the bible, since without the catholic pope, we wouldnt even have our bible.

I dont know of any catholic dogma that supercedes any scripture.

As far as salvation, the catholic statement on how salvation is obtained is the same as baptists and lutherans.

In your rush to complain about "6 additional books", you seem to ignore the other 95% of the bible put together by the pope that you DO use.

The simple fact is, that you/we wouldnt have any bible at all if it wasnt for the pope.

If you disagree with 5% of what catholics believe, or more likely maybe 2%, that still is no excuse to not give credit where it is due to the pope, esp in the pope giving us our bible.

I thank God that the Catholic Church put together the findings of scrolls and letters and put it into the form of the Bible. But that doesn't make them authoritative over it or claim ownership of them. It's like if Moses was given the tablets to the Ten Commandments by God and then Moses started claiming authority over it and trying to add his traditions to it. Instead of 10 commandments, we'd end up having 10x10 commandments by now. The scriptures were given to us by God to reveal what He wanted to reveal to us. The whole purpose of putting together the writtings and scrolls was to develope a "God inspired Book" and thus that means to me its totally 100% inspired by God and should be totally authoritative of any Church.

PS. I thought the first Pope was Gregory in 590-604 AD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

icedtea · Nov 26, 2006

I can understand the Bible just fine.

lionroar0 · Nov 27, 2006

PS. I thought the first Pope was Gregory in 590-604 AD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

St Peter was the 1st Pope.

Peace

lionroar0 · Nov 27, 2006

You can keep pulling all that stuff out of some Catholic web site, and I could go to some Protestant areas on the web and we can continue to go back and forth on these issues, but bottom line is you are putting all your faith (salvation) in man's traditions (Pope's falliblity) while I'm putting my faith in Jesus Christ, the only one who is infallible.

Um Catholics put their faith in Jesus Christ. Catholics do not worship the Pope.

Peace

DArceri · Nov 27, 2006

I like the one about the Pope being the Vicar of Christ:

Similarities?

If the pope is Christ' s substitute on earth, there should be many similarities in their lives. Let' s see:

While on earth, Jesus never controlled great wealth. The pope controls one of the wealthiest corporations in the world.
Jesus dressed like a common man. The pope, on the other hand, is never seen in anything but regal apparel.
Jesus lived in simple surroundings, but the pope views opulence at every turn.
Jesus tirelessly served the multitudes, while the pope travels the world on his private jet, meeting with world leaders from every nation.
Most people eventually rejected and hated Jesus because He told the truth. The pope is worshipped and adored by millions worldwide.
The pope gladly welcomes the praise of men, but Jesus directed all worship to the Father, and said of Himself:
"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

More Nagging Questions

Once again, Catholic doctrine and Scriptures could not disagree more. As a result, you must choose sides on each of the following questions:

Why didn' t God tell us in the Bible that He was sending the pope as the Vicar of Christ?
Why does the Bible insist that Jesus is still the head of the church, if He isn't?
Why does the Catholic church want the pope to be the final authority instead of Jesus?
Why does the Catholic church want the pope to be your teacher instead of the Holy Spirit of God?

DArceri · Nov 27, 2006

lionroar0 said:
Um Catholics put their faith in Jesus Christ. Catholics do not worship the Pope.

Peace

I'm glad your not in the camp of Mary being co-mediator. I think there is a push to make her co-redeemer also.

lionroar0 · Nov 27, 2006

Some one needs to read these Encyclicals on the study of and reading of the Holy Scriptures.

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13provi.htm

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12DIVIN.HTM

This is a snippet from 'Divino Afflante." The entire texts can be read at the above addresses.

50. Let priests therefore, who are bound by their office to procure the eternal salvation of the faithful, after they have themselves by diligent study perused the sacred pages and made them their own by prayer and meditations, assiduously distribute the heavenly treasures of the divine word by sermons, homilies and exhortations; let them confirm the Christian doctrine by sentences from the Sacred Books and illustrate it by outstanding examples from sacred history and in particular from the Gospel of Christ Our Lord; and -- avoiding with the greatest care those purely arbitrary and far-fetched adaptations, which are not a use, but rather an abuse of the divine word -- let them set forth all this with such eloquence, lucidity and clearness that the faithful may not only be moved and inflamed to reform their lives, but may also conceive in their hearts the greatest veneration for the Sacred Scripture.

Peace

Theophorus · Nov 27, 2006

darceri said:
???

There is some great points in there...I like the one about the Pope being the Vicar of Christ:

Like Paul?

Similarities?
If the pope is Christ' s substitute on earth, there should be many similarities in their lives. Let' s see:

While on earth, Jesus never controlled great wealth. The pope controls one of the wealthiest corporations in the world.

Jesus dressed like a common man. The pope, on the other hand, is never seen in anything but regal apparel.

Jesus lived in simple surroundings, but the pope views opulence at every turn.

Jesus tirelessly served the multitudes, while the pope travels the world on his private jet, meeting with world leaders from every nation.

Maybe it's a WOF thing.

Most people eventually rejected and hated Jesus because He told the truth. The pope is worshipped and adored by millions worldwide.

Like the Turks who are burnning effigies of him because he is going to set foot in their country.

The pope gladly welcomes the praise of men, but Jesus directed all worship to the Father, and said of Himself:
"Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

That is why he sticks to strict teachings about homosexuality, birth control and divorce.

More Nagging Questions
Once again, Catholic doctrine and Scriptures could not disagree more. As a result, you must choose sides on each of the following questions:

Why didn' t God tell us in the Bible that He was sending the pope as the Vicar of Christ?

Why does the Bible insist that Jesus is still the head of the church, if He isn't?

Why does the Catholic church want the pope to be the final authority instead of Jesus?

Why does the Catholic church want the pope to be your teacher instead of the Holy Spirit of God?

Is the Pope a virgin like Christ? Does he fast and pray? Did the apostles speak for Christ? Did the apostles, Paul, want to be the final authority instead of Christ? Did Paul want to be your teacher instead of the Holy Spirit?

icedtea · Nov 27, 2006

Some christians are catholic, some protestant.

lionroar0 · Nov 27, 2006

Some christians are catholic, some protestant.

Yep. ANd there's a few goats in there with the sheep.

Peace

DArceri · Nov 27, 2006

Theophorus said:
Like Paul?
[/list]Maybe it's a WOF thing.
[/list]Like the Turks who are burnning effigies of him because he is going to set foot in their country.

That is why he sticks to strict teachings about homosexuality, birth control and divorce.

Is the Pope a virgin like Christ? Does he fast and pray? Did the apostles speak for Christ? Did the apostles, Paul, want to be the final authority instead of Christ? Did Paul want to be your teacher instead of the Holy Spirit?

I don't believe John, Paul, or Peter claimed infallibility or for that matter, being a Vicar of Christ.

What they did do is "take up the cross".

Theophorus · Nov 27, 2006

darceri said:
I don't believe John, Paul, or Peter claimed infallibility or for that matter, being a Vicar of Christ.

Then why do you read the bible?

Papal Infallibility.

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