Paid preachers

[Jamey]

How do ya'll feel about preachers and "pastors" being paid? Is it biblical? Are we not all called to preach? I had a discussion a few days ago with a friend who believes at the very least a pastor (thats what he calls preachers) should be provided a house. I asked him where in the bible was that found. Now as a disclaimer, he is motivated by the fact that he aspires to be a "pastor".
I'll wait for replies before I put in my humble opinion.

Your brother in Christ,
J.

 

[Johnnz]

In the NT people seemed to rely on people giving voluntarily. Many were self supporting, as Paul often was. There are two poles. Some 'ministry' expect to be well provided for. But many Christians want the services of a 'paid professional' without that costing them too much.

John
NZ

 

[lismore]

John 10:12
The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.

One shepherd, the good shepherd. Hired hand is no good!

John 10:13
The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

 

[Jamey]

I agree with both of ya'll. No reason to ask a "pastor" what he thinks. He wants to protect his income. But I think the reason us "laypersons" want to protect the status quo is because we still think the same way as the Roman church did in the middle ages.....indulgences (sp). We want to do God's work by proxy. Its safer and cleaner. If I just buy that statue i'm good with God. If I just pay for that slip of paper that says my sins are absolved. If I just pay for that pastor up there, He can go out and preach to the unsaved, feed the poor, etc.
The proof is how we now witness to someone. What do we usually do? We invite them to church. That way they can hear someone who is "educated" in the ways of the Lord. They can hear that powerful 3 part sermon. And we did our part by "witnessing" to them.
very sad.
J.

 

[Rev_Bill]

Ultimately, if a pastor / preacher / reverend / priest / and whatever other name we choose to refer to the "leader" of a church should be responsible for starting that church and should have a passion for the congregation and seek only to help them and guide them along God's path.

Unfortunately, since we live in a materialistic world, The reverend, pastor etc, still needs to provide for his family as well. Most churches I have been to, the pastor holds a part time and sometimes a full time job on top of his pastoral duties. In a large congregation where his pastoral duties grow to the point of not allowing him to have another job, I feel that the church should contribute to the support of the pastor and his family.

 

[marksman007]

Most of the time we are fed bits from the pulpit. Rarely do we have an indepth study of a book of the bible. Unless you know the context you can't know the content.

It is only as we study to show ourselves approved to God (not man) that we discover that the NT church was not led by 'pastors' it was led by a plurality of elders, none of whom were paid.

Last year I decided to spend 12 months investigating leadership in the NT church. I started by studying scripture, much of which was in the Greek, then bought or researched books that adressed the topic. In all I read over 40.

I found that the contemporary idea of calling a pastor from outside the church to be the CEO/leader does not exist in the NT. That is based on the Roman Catholic idea of the priest that was morphed into a protestant pastor.

The Greek word for clergy does not exist in the NT and the word for pastor only once in Ephesians 4. The Greek word for 'ordination' not once refers to being ordained to church leadership.

The verses for church governance appear 25 times and every one of them refers to a plurality of elders. Not once does it mention a 'pastor'.

Paul told Timothy to ordain 'elders' in every church. Not once did he tell him to ordain pastors. The elders had a shepherding role as well as oversight, teaching and correction.

I discovered so much contemporary practice that was not backed up by scripture I decided to develop a website to convey my findings. If you want to know more go to http://churchalive66.googlepages.com

 

[rob64]

IMO
Most 'pastors' today look at it as a paid job. And most churches have turned church into a production; They have to have the lighting just right,...
NT lays out the description of the leadership. Pastors/preachers/whatevers are not in the leadership that humans decide.
God gave GIFTS to the churches; pastors and teachers, ...

Just like the Holy Ghost is the one who gives out the spiritual gifts, God sets the pastors/teachers in the church. Not man. Not election. Not voting. Not appointing
"And He gave SOME to be...
NOT ALL PASTORS ARE PUT THERE FROM GOD

And, Acts tells us that they sold EVERYTHING THEY HAD, and distibuted it as they had need. They were all, "in one accord". They had everything common.

 

[marksman007]

A classic example of God's annointing not man appointing is a church I started. I noticed one particular man who spent his time shepherding the flock. No one appointed him and no one asked him to do it. He just did. It was evident that he had an annointing from God for that ministry. Did we stop him because he wasn't appointed? NO. Did we give him an offical title? NO. did we give him an official position? NO. We allowed him to do what he was called to do by God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Like as in the multitude of small house churches in chnia and elsewhere .. ? ..
Gives people a choice, to be daily part of and to effectively work as a living part of Jesus' body.

 

[rob64]

A classic example of God's annointing not man appointing is a church I started. I noticed one particular man who spent his time shepherding the flock. No one appointed him and no one asked him to do it. He just did. It was evident that he had an annointing from God for that ministry. Did we stop him because he wasn't appointed? NO. Did we give him an offical title? NO. did we give him an official position? NO. We allowed him to do what he was called to do by God.

good post.
We all are suposed to "go make disciples". Which would mean taking time out of our busy schedule to get personally involved in peoples lives. Bringing them to the Lord, and 'schooling them' after. Does this actually happen, ...?
IMO, with most of us, we make a decision to 'get saved'. But IMO, with some people [like Paul] it's almost like they don't have a choice in the matter, God just knocks them down [to get their attention] and seperates them for Himself, for a very specific purpose, such as sheperding.
Also, Paul and his compadres actually worked to support theirselves. And gave instructions to support each other

 

[rob64]

Like as in the multitude of small house churches in chnia and elsewhere .. ? ..
Gives people a choice, to be daily part of and to effectively work as a living part of Jesus' body.

That's how I see it!

 

[mystery4]

my understanding from what the Bible teaches is that there are people who are called to shepherd, commonly known as pastors, but everyone is a disciple and minister for God. When Jesus sent his twelve and 72 disciples out, he told them not to take anything extra with them, just the clothes on their back, no food or anything. Then he told them to find someone worthy to stay at their house and that if people wouldn't welcome them to shake the dust off their feet and leave the town. Matt 10

You see instances where Paul was given support from churches, Phil 4:14-20.
But at the same time we are asked to help each other out. James1:27.

The idea of leadership in my understanding was if there was a church in someone's house, they were considered "in charge." Hence servant. The letters and greetings are usually addressed to the person who owns the house to pass on to the rest of the church. Rom 16. When the work got too much for the apostles they carefully chose men who could do the work of caring for physical needs while they remained in prayer and ministry/preaching. Deacons. Acts 6:1-7.

Then as they grew, elders were needed to help care for the existing churches spiritually while the apostles did the church planting in other areas and kept up encouragement, support, exhortations, rebukes and urged the churches to remain pure and repent as they were being led astray. They also kept the churches constantly informed as to what they were doing. this can be seen in many of the epistles.

 

[rob64]

my understanding from what the Bible teaches is that there are people who are called to shepherd, commonly known as pastors, but everyone is a disciple and minister for God.

I agree... And He said to.."Go make disciples of all nations..."

A disciple is a student.

We - the sheep - are the ones who reproduce sheep. The shepherd leads and cares for the sheep. But in many churches, I hear the shepherd say, bring em in and I'll get em saved.

 

[marksman007]

The shepherds of the NT church were not commonly known as pastors. That is a modern day construct to give credence to appointing paid personel who are brought in from outside to run the church.

The shepherds were the Elders. The word pastor only appears once in Ephesians 4 along with the other four ministries. Their role was to "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we reach unity in the faith and the knowledge of the son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fulness of Christ."

There is no mention of shepherding the flock, even though the word pastor means shepherd. The sheperding role of the elders was obviously different to the shepherding role of the pastor if we are to believe what this passage says.

Preparing God's people for works of service (diakonos) is to teach and show them how to serve one another, not to look after their spirtual and material needs.

 

[Jamey]

I went to visit my parents this weekend in sw louisiana. My wife and I visited a small congragation sunday. 14 people counting ourselves. There was no paid preacher there. The men take turns to teach a lesson (one person each week as the Lord leads). I asked one of the ladies there about that and her answer was "why pay someone money to do that?" (gotta love dem old cajun ladies). They feel that there money is best spent helping others. It was really refreshing.
J.

 

[rob64]

I'm going to have to go home and do the homework on this, (to find the exact location) because "pastor" is most definately scriptural. And... from the greek, shepherd and pastor...SAME WORD.

"...and He gave some ... pastors and teachers..."

This is talking about GIFTS that God Himself gave to the church.

To be continued...

 

[marksman007]

Precisely Jamie a classic example of the priesthood of all believers.

 

[BlackSabb]

I had a discussion a few days ago with a friend who believes at the very least a pastor (thats what he calls preachers) should be provided a house. I asked him where in the bible was that found. Now as a disclaimer, he is motivated by the fact that he aspires to be a "pastor".

This is something very important I painfully learnt. Never ever ask a pastor who is getting paid from the church about money. It is a conflict of interest. There is a clear incentive for the pastor to downright lie in order to continue receiving money.

This applies not only to your own pastor where you go to church, but even asking a pastor of another church where you don't attend. This even includes asking a pastor of another denomination that you do not attend.

Do my words sound overly harsh, critical and cynical? Well, gather up around children, let me tell you all a story. Pull up your chairs and listen up.

In my second last church, my pastors were big on "tithes and offerings" and even went so far as to say that if you didn't give at least your mandatory 10% to the church, you were not really a Christian and would go to Hell.

This church eventually floundered, and the pastors transferred to another church where they were not in any leadership position anymore-just ordinary congregation members. The pastors gave up any aspiration for leadership, and resumed secular jobs.

I caught up with them after a few years, and I was very interested to know what their belief was on giving to the church-now that they were in a position of giving rather than receiving.

Well, surprise, surprise. The former pastors had a change of heart, and decided now that Biblical NT giving is optional, according to what is in their heart.

How very convenient. The husband even admitted that he pushed the tithing line in his church because of the struggling finances, as it was always a small church.

So the moral of the story is this; It is a clear conflict of interest to ask a pastor, who receives his money from the church, about giving. The answer is most likely to be a lie.

It would be like asking Dracula about giving blood!

My dear dad is a real hard core fundamentalist Christian. Very religious, very conservative, very fire and brimstone. Yet even he says that pastors are a bunch of crooks when it comes to money.

Can I hear an Amen?

 

[rob64]

Hey Jamey !

 

[stelow]

Even the OT frowned on these money motivated leaders.

Micah 3:5 - 12
"5You lying prophets promise security for anyone who gives you food,
but disaster for anyone who refuses to feed you. Here is what the LORD says to you prophets:
6"You will live in the dark, far from the sight of the sun, with no message from me.
7You prophets and fortunetellers will all be disgraced, with no message from me."
8But the LORD has filled me with power and his Spirit. I have been given the courage to speak about justice and to tell you people of Israel that you have sinned.
9So listen to my message, you rulers of Israel! You hate justice and twist the truth.
10You make cruelty and murder a way of life in Jerusalem.
11You leaders accept bribes for dishonest decisions. You priests and prophets teach and preach, but only for money. Then you say, "The LORD is on our side. No harm will come to us."
12And so, because of you, Jerusalem will be plowed under and left in ruins. Thorns will cover the mountain where the temple now stands."