Pagan Ideas In Christianity

Steezie · Sep 22, 2009

Before I begin, I'd like to establish that many of the ideas in Christianity can be traced back to origins that pre-date Christianity. I'm not necessarily claiming that Christianity copied them, but Christianity does contain ideas that pre-date it's existence.

With that established, how do Christians as a whole reconcile the fact that Christianity contains so many pagan (Pagan in the pre-Christian sense, not the modern Pagan sense) ideas and that even our everyday life is loaded with holdovers from pre-Christian times?

Chesterton · Sep 22, 2009

Steezie said:
Before I begin, I'd like to establish that many of the ideas in Christianity can be traced back to origins that pre-date Christianity. I'm not necessarily claiming that Christianity copied them, but Christianity does contain ideas that pre-date it's existence.

With that established, how do Christians as a whole reconcile the fact that Christianity contains so many pagan (Pagan in the pre-Christian sense, not the modern Pagan sense) ideas and that even our everyday life is loaded with holdovers from pre-Christian times?

If Christianity is the whole Truth, then anything which is true should be expected to be contained within it. If some pagan thought recognized virture, then Christians will recognize that much truth in that pagan thought. If a pagan says it's wrong to steal, then I'll agree with that pagan. In a nutshell, Christianity agrees with whatever is true, regardless of the label attached to it, and disagrees with whatever is false, regardless of the label attached to it.

Van · Sep 22, 2009

What we have here is a concept. What is a "pagan idea" Any idea that predates Christianity. Such as contained in the Old Testament? To say we should love God with all our heart is not pagan, even though the idea was written before the time of Christ.

This is not to say that Christianity has not been corrupted by pagan ideas. Some folks think Augustine was overly influenced by neo-platonic ideas.

In any event, without some specifics, the generalized charge seems designed to vilify rather than enlighten.

Sketcher · Sep 22, 2009

I'm a Protestant, so I reject the stuff that came out of syncretism with the Roman paganism.

Steezie · Sep 22, 2009

twistedsketch said:
I'm a Protestant, so I reject the stuff that came out of syncretism with the Roman paganism.

Even Protestant Christianity has aspects of pagan beliefs in it

Sketcher · Sep 22, 2009

Steezie said:
Even Protestant Christianity has aspects of pagan beliefs in it

No, not really. We go by the Bible. Any similarities there are really coincidental. After all reality is not so thick that some people can't get a grasp of it. We all know it's wrong to murder, for example. Big whoop.

ebia · Sep 22, 2009

Steezie said:
Before I begin, I'd like to establish that many of the ideas in Christianity can be traced back to origins that pre-date Christianity. I'm not necessarily claiming that Christianity copied them, but Christianity does contain ideas that pre-date it's existence.

With that established, how do Christians as a whole reconcile the fact that Christianity contains so many pagan (Pagan in the pre-Christian sense, not the modern Pagan sense) ideas and that even our everyday life is loaded with holdovers from pre-Christian times?

The question is a bit hard to answer in the generic without specifics because there are a heap of factors going on.

Firstly the number of such ideas is often overstated by including things that look slightly similar on the surface but aren't in reality, or (sometimes) by outright manipulation of history.

Then there are expected co-incidiences and similarities. There are only so many ways one can do worship, and a lot of 'pagan' variations out there, so there are bound to be some overlaps.

Then there is the fact that all religions are searching after truth, and so will sometimes find aspects of it.

Then there may be instances where pagan religions have been influenced by Judaism.

And then there are instances when Christianity has borrowed metaphors, symbols and language from the world around it to explain what it is talking about.

Celticflower · Sep 22, 2009

Some of it falls, I believe, under the concept of the common made holy. If a tradition or ideal that pre-dates the church is found to be of value in explaining or celebrating Christianity to the people there is no harm in using it - as long as it points to God. So a common tradition or belief or whatever can be converted, just like a person can.

Bryanfromiowa · Sep 22, 2009

There is one answer that makes sense with this question. Persecution early christians were hunted down and killed in some cases. They had to hide their traditions from ancient romans so in some cases they hid their celebrations by celebrating during rman events.

Supreme · Sep 23, 2009

twistedsketch said:
I'm a Protestant, so I reject the stuff that came out of syncretism with the Roman paganism.

That's wierd, I haven't met a lot of 'non-denominational' Protestants.

salida · Sep 23, 2009

Cope? First of all your premise is wrong. There are no pagan ideas in christianity. In fact, judism is the oldest religion and predates anything your claiming. Then after christ resurrected the New Testament fulfilled the Old Testament. Your claims are in great error and futile.

98cwitr · Sep 23, 2009

yes, there are pagan ideas in Christianity today...one of the best known ones is Christmas itself. We do not know when Christ was born, but the reasons why Dec. 25th is the date have pagan origins.

Why December 25? | Christian History

Steezie · Sep 23, 2009

salida said:
Cope? First of all your premise is wrong. There are no pagan ideas in christianity.

The idea of a god that dies and is reborn is not new by any measure, gods from all cultures went through literal or metaphorical death and rebirth.

The Trinity is pre-dated by ideas from dozens of different cultures about triple gods or three aspects of a single god.

The idea of monotheism itself pre-dated Judaism and Christianity to almost the 14th century BC with Akhenaten and Atenism in which the Aten (sun disc) was the sole god and Pharaoh his intermediary on Earth, similar to the modern papacy.

The story of Isis, Osiris, and Horus mirrors closely the life of Jesus.

The idea of absolute evil was brought about by Zoroastrianism, which pre-dates Judaism and Christianity.

Several wise men (called magi) journeyed to herald the birth of the savior of the world in Zoroastrian belief, [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Saoshyant.

The church adopted many pagan practices and changed them to ease conversion of native populations to Christianity.
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In fact, judism is the oldest religion and predates anything your claiming. Then after christ resurrected the New Testament fulfilled the Old Testament. Your claims are in great error and futile.

Judaism is not the oldest religion, it is certainly quite old but not the oldest.

ebia · Sep 23, 2009

Steezie said:
The idea of a god that dies and is reborn is not new by any measure, gods from all cultures went through literal or metaphorical death and rebirth.

There are indeed such stories but they inherently differ from resurrection is markedly different ways. Resurrection is a Jewish idea that happens to (all) God's peopleat the end of the age, not being reborn as before but coming through death and out the other side. In Christianity that is then said to have already happened to Jesus on Easter Morning. The Christian resurrection is essentially about a human/all humans coming through death and out the other side, defeating death, in what is intrisinsically a once-for-all event. Not about a god cyclically dying and being reborn.

The Trinity is pre-dated by ideas from dozens of different cultures about triple gods or three aspects of a single god.

I dare say, though to what extent they look like the Christian version...

The idea of monotheism itself pre-dated Judaism and Christianity to almost the 14th century BC with Akhenaten and Atenism in which the Aten (sun disc) was the sole god and Pharaoh his intermediary on Earth, similar to the modern papacy.

There are only so many ideas around. It's not at all surprising that there are some other instances of monotheism in part or whole. Though not many are a single creator God of all that is.

The story of Isis, Osiris, and Horus mirrors closely the life of Jesus.

The similarities are usually grossly overstated.

The idea of absolute evil was brought about by Zoroastrianism, which pre-dates Judaism and Christianity.

The idea of evil in some sense is a pretty basic idea. Though it's hard to tell in many cases with Zoroastrianism what is original and what is later accumulation.

Several wise men (called magi) journeyed to herald the birth of the savior of the world in Zoroastrian belief, [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]Saoshyant. [/FONT]

And? There are only so many narrative themes out there. Given the number in the bible, and the enormous number in other cultures, it's a statistical certainity that some similar ones will be found simply by chance.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]The church adopted many pagan practices and changed them to ease conversion of native populations to Christianity[/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]That's absolutely true, and not inappropriate. The Judeo/Christian story is of God working with and within a fallen creation to put it right. That Christians should subvert some pagan symbols and dates in that process is entirely appropriate. But the instances of this are often completely overstated, or simply pick the wrong things, or ignore the substance of the idea and look at a few surface similarities. A bat looks a bit like a bird, but is completely unrelated.[/FONT]

Steezie · Sep 23, 2009

ebia said:
There are indeed such stories but they inherently differ from resurrection is markedly different ways. Resurrection is a Jewish idea that happens to (all) God's peopleat the end of the age, not being reborn as before but coming through death and out the other side. In Christianity that is then said to have already happened to Jesus on Easter Morning. The Christian resurrection is essentially about a human/all humans coming through death and out the other side, defeating death, in what is intrisinsically a once-for-all event. Not about a god cyclically dying and being reborn.

The idea of death and rebirth after death is not new nor is it unique to Christianity or Judaism. The concept is found well-established in Egyptian beliefs that pre-date both Christianity and Judaism.

I dare say, though to what extent they look like the Christian version...

That depends which one you look at

There are only so many ideas around. It's not at all surprising that there are some other instances of monotheism in part or whole. Though not many are a single creator God of all that is.

Monotheism tends to be the exception rather than the norm, but the big one you have to look at is Zoroastrianism which was as popular back in the day as Christianity is now.

The similarities are usually grossly overstated.

Not actually, some of the details differ, but the two stories are remarkably similar.

The idea of evil in some sense is a pretty basic idea. Though it's hard to tell in many cases with Zoroastrianism what is original and what is later accumulation.

The idea of ABSOLUTE evil is actually quite novel and is almost exclusive to monotheistic religions. We know that Zoroastrianism had this idea because we've been able to sort out writings from the Greeks and Persians pre-Christianity.

And? There are only so many narrative themes out there. Given the number in the bible, and the enormous number in other cultures, it's a statistical certainity that some similar ones will be found simply by chance.

And that is a very valid point however when one looks at many of the aspects of Christianity, the similarities start stacking up and it becomes more and more difficult to attribute them to random chance.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]

That's absolutely true, and not inappropriate. The Judeo/Christian story is of God working with and within a fallen creation to put it right. That Christians should subvert some pagan symbols and dates in that process is entirely appropriate. But the instances of this are often completely overstated, or simply pick the wrong things, or ignore the substance of the idea and look at a few surface similarities. A bat looks a bit like a bird, but is completely unrelated.[/FONT]

The adaptions go right down to the foundation of Christianity, even down to the cross itself. The cross was a form of punishment and execution as far back as the Babylonians.

salida · Sep 23, 2009

Some of your claims arn't true at all. I don't know where you are getting your information but its not historically correct. Plus, there are many bible prophecys that have been fulfilled - nothing random chance about them. It is also obvious you are not at all familiar with the bible.

http://www.baptistbiblebelievers.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=twa6epmkFfY%3D&tabid=234&mid=768 Math Proof of Bibles reliability.

Steezie- I have been down this road with you before. I will show you each error; but now I'm going to eat dinner ha.

More facts about bible that arn't random:

Biblical Circumstantial Evidence (Scratching the Surface Only)

Internal Evidences
Prophesies that are confirmed within Bible

- Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen 49:10 - Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke's time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5 -Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

**I can list at least 20 more of these.
-Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 - four kingdoms are described in the interpretation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek - Daniel 8:21, 10:20) and a fourth great kingdom to follow - part iron and clay - which is the Roman Empire - during this empire Christ came and the church was established - Daniel 2:44.

-Historical Accuracy
The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events hundreds of years ago, yet has not been proven incorrect on any.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents):
New Testament - starts at 25 years - between original and first surviving copies
Homer - starts at 500 years
Demosthenes - at 1400 years
Plato - at 1200 years
Caesar - at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies
New Testament - 5,686
Homer - 643
Demosthenes - 200
Plato - 7
Caesar - 10

Consistency
Written by at least 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no internal inconsistencies.

Claim of Inspiration
It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.

External Evidences
(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never be built again.
Nineveh - Nahum 1:10, 3:7,15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon - Isaiah 13:1-22)
Tyre (Ezekiel 26:1-28)

Bible before Science
He hangs the earth on nothing - Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago - some scholars think it could be even 3000 years ago)
Note: Man only knew this for 350 years
Earth is a sphere, Isaiah 40:22
Air has weight, Job 28:25
Gravity - Job 26:7, Job 38:31-33
Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True
Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogoical Finds
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel

You remind me of Dark Prophet - who comes here continually making up fables with no references-thus, they are vague attacking or marginalizing christianity. Doing this over and over again isn't going to change reality just like the sun isn't going to turn purple for you.
Such as everything you listed.

Steezie · Sep 23, 2009

salida said:
Some of your claims arn't true at all. I don't know where you are getting your information but its not historically correct.

Such as?

freeport · Sep 23, 2009

Steezie said:
Before I begin, I'd like to establish that many of the ideas in Christianity can be traced back to origins that pre-date Christianity. I'm not necessarily claiming that Christianity copied them, but Christianity does contain ideas that pre-date it's existence.

With that established, how do Christians as a whole reconcile the fact that Christianity contains so many pagan (Pagan in the pre-Christian sense, not the modern Pagan sense) ideas and that even our everyday life is loaded with holdovers from pre-Christian times?

I get that a lot. God, through Jesus, is the Light of the world, yet the world does not recognize Him.

We can turn the darkest black into sweet gold... because God created and sustains all of creation.

Ave Maria · Sep 23, 2009

What about Mithraism? Has anyone ever looked at the parallels between Mithra and Jesus? If you haven't, why not do so now by going to the following link?

Jesus and Mithra - FreeThoughtPedia

Chesterton · Sep 23, 2009

Steezie said:
The idea of death and rebirth after death is not new nor is it unique to Christianity or Judaism. The concept is found well-established in Egyptian beliefs that pre-date both Christianity and Judaism.

Then why are you asking how Christians reconcile this? Reconciliation would only be necessary if the ideas were somehow in opposition. Christianity agrees with and fulfils the ideas of much of mankind.

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