our sinfulness

[Romanseight2005]

I read something recently that sort of jumped out at me, because I realized that I didn't believe it, and was wondering where the biblical basis for it was.
This is what was said,"The fact of the matter is that we all have sinned, are sinning, and will continue to sin." While I believe this is a widely accepted belief, I don't find it to be a biblical one. I believe that the Bible teaches that we are cleansed of all unrighteousness, and that while we are capable of choosing wrongly again, we aren't necessarily always in a constant state of sinfulness.I think of passages like these.

1 John 2:1-2
2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
NIV

This clearly speaks from a position of saying that we have a way of escape, and if we are wise and in close relationship with Christ. we could actually not sin. But because we have free choice, the chances that we will sin again are certainly out there. But we are not in a constant state of sinfulness. If we were, then why does John tell us that He willl be faithful and just to cleanse us of all our iniquity. Could we even be guilty of denying God's power by saying that we were never fully, completely, or powerfully cleansed? Or that this cleansing is ineffective? I don't see the belief that says we are in a constant state of sin as believers in Christ, as biblical.

 

[cubinity]

<snip> I don't see the belief that says we are in a constant state of sin as believers in Christ, as biblical.

I appreciate that twenty-first century Christians have a much broader definition of sin than John did.

So, I think this is more a discussion about the difference between the twenty-first century version of "sin" and John's version.

If you define sin in a narrow sense, as I believe John did, then I would agree with you.

If you define it in a much broader sense (anything possibly displeasing to God), then I would have to agree with the speaker of that quote.

So, I think perhaps the real issue is that speaker's definition of sin is not as Biblically-based as you might like.

Start with that. Let's see where that takes us.

 

[DamianWarS]

i think Christians have a habit of thinking about their sin as marks on a chalk board. For every sin there is a mark on a chalk board that represents that sin and when we sin again a new mark goes up. when we are forgiven the chalk board is erased and we start all over again.

This is the wrong concept of sin (and forgiveness). We tend to cheapen grace through this concept because after we are forgiven we no longer need Christ until we sin again and Christ just turns into this on-demand service instead of a relationship that never stops. Sin is not something you can measure so it is pointless to talk about it in terms of how many you have or if you only have a little or you have a lot. All sin, no matter how big or small, how little or many you think you have, separates us from God. Sin is the inherit fallen state we are in not a score board against us. The only way to counter the effects of sin is through grace which is restoration through Christ.

Grace is not something that just cleans up all the garbage so we can start all over again. It is like a blanket of righteousness that covers us (and it isn't necessarily removed just because we sin). When I am forgiven I still need Christ as much as I did before I was forgiven and it doesn't matter how good I am or how many times I asked for forgiveness I still need it and I still need Christ all the same. When I sin I need Christ and when I am "good" I still need Christ the same amount. this blanket of righteousness that grace gives us allows us to partake in direct communion with God himself. This is the state that grace allows us to be in because if sin separates us from God than grace restores that separation.

This should not be thought of as an on-demand type service instead it is something we should constantly be a part of and never release. You may think "well that's impossible because as much as I want to I can never maintain that level of commitment and I will always fail" And you would be right by thinking this but this is the point of grace. We can never achieve this blanket of righteousness through our actions and it is only through the actions of Christ and it is only through this that we can constantly maintain this relationship.

We are in a state of sinfulness that we cannot repair and we were born with it. this is something that is constantly a part of us and in the same way we constantly need Christ to restore us and make us whole. Yes we can sin as an action and then we can add up those actions to measure our sin but this has no bearing on how grace affects us or how great our sinful state is. In the same way if we are are doing what God wants then we are doing "good" actions and these righteous actions also can be added up and counted but it doesn't matter because we still need Christ as much as we did as "sinners". Our actions, no matter good or bad, do no discredit our need for Christ and counting and measuring our actions feeds that idea.

Even though measuring our actions is the wrong way of thinking there still is a transformation that is a part of us when we allow God is work in our lives. It is our own resistance that limits this power and how much it affects us but no matter how much we limit grace its power is always available to us we just have to fully surrender to it.

 

[papaJP]

Remember we are both flesh and spirit. The flesh is trying to sin continuously and the spirit (if we are believers and filled with God's Holy Spirit) is continuaouly fighting the flesh trying to keep it from sinning. It is war and almost impossible to not sin sometime. The main point is that we should not willfully sin knowing what sin is. We continue to have the ability to repent and stop doing the sin we have done.
To rationalize what we interpret as sin against what God has said is sin is useless.
The process to perfection is a long journey that the Holy Spirit will teach us how to walk through.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Gal 5:19-26

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
NKJV

Crucified the flesh. What does this really mean?

 

[Michael009]

Romanseight2005 you started a fantastic topic, one in which should be preached from the house tops, "Victory over Sin"

sinner: Can Jesus really deliver from sin?
Bible: Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS, for he shall save his people FROM their sins.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, BELIEVE that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

To anonymous: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Rom 6:2) For he that is dead is FREED from sin. (Rom 6:7)

Even if you ain't walking in victory yet, just keep on saying Rom 6:7 to yourself (And all scriptures that detail your victory over sin through Christ) until faith wells up in your heart to live it true.

 

[Woldeyesus]

Actually, the more active the presence of the Holy Spirit in one's life, the deeper the sense of one's sins! That is why we have the regular means of sin-cleansing in the promised "streams of life-giving water pouring out from one's life" (John 7: 37-39). For such grace to function, however, we first have to find real answers to our lack of firsthand knowledge of God (Jer. 31: 31-34). If not, we will surely die in our sins (John 8:24).

This is how the "matchless grace of Jesus" works."My grace is all you need, for my power is strongest when you are weak." (2 Cor. 12:9) That is also why Paul vied twice for the healthy position of "I am the worst of sinners" in the present tense (1 Tim. 1: 15-16).

Therefore, one's sense of sins and the active presence of the Holy Spirit are inseparable especially after being born again in the knowledge and image of Christ. AMEN.

 

[agua]

We are being conformed to the image of Jesus.This is a process and indicates we will sin less as we mature in Christ.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


We will not be totally without sin until He returns.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

 

[Woldeyesus]

We are being conformed to the image of Jesus.This is a process and indicates we will sin less as we mature in Christ.

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


We will not be totally without sin until He returns.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

It is great to agree.

One's prior personal knowledge of the living Christ, based on the given great vision of his perfect and diacritical death on the cross, is the critical factor for "growth in his grace and knowledge." Lack of his knowledge, on the other hand, results in death in one's sins, i.e., unforgiven (John 8:24).

The irrevocable promise is, "I will forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs." Jer. 31:34

The difference is not only great but ever-widening (Matt. 13: 11-12).

May the Lord bless us with his personal presence and teach us his laws! AMEN.

 

[agua]

It is great to agree.

One's prior personal knowledge of the living Christ, based on the given great vision of his perfect and diacritical death on the cross, is the critical factor for "growth in his grace and knowledge." Lack of his knowledge, on the other hand, results in death in one's sins, i.e., unforgiven (John 8:24).

The irrevocable promise is, "I will forgive their sins and I will no longer remember their wrongs." Jer. 31:34

The difference is not only great but ever-widening (Matt. 13: 11-12).

May the Lord bless us with his personal presence and teach us his laws! AMEN.

Amen..let us come to know the Lord better each day.
Thank-You Jesus.

 

[Woldeyesus]

Amen..let us come to know the Lord better each day.
Thank-You Jesus.

AMEN.

 

[lesliedellow]

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


(Romans 7.14-25)