Archaeopteryx
Wanderer
You're assuming that moral obligations come from God. Obviously the vast majority of atheists disagree.
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You're assuming that moral obligations come from God. Obviously the vast majority of atheists disagree.And they will say He is not worthy of worship because He is in some way immoral. His failure to fulfill certain moral obligations precludes Him from being worthy of worship.
But from whence come these obligations if God does not exist?
How is competence here defined?Seems you agree with me. Apart from a competent moral prescriber, the notions of moral prescriptions and moral duties and obligations are unintelligible.
Rational interest in the well-being of humans.But from whence come these obligations if God does not exist?
Of course ought implies an entity making moral judgments, specifically the one saying "ought."
There is a subjective "ought" which is meaningless and merely whining. If there is an "ought" which is objective, what can that possibly be but God's own point of view?
When an atheist says things ought to be a certain way, he is imposing his own desires upon the universe. The universe doesn't much care.
"Atheists" ? I wonder what you suppose the people you've been talking to in this thread call themselves, if not atheists, even though they explicitly do. They are atheists that are using the word in the sense that that they are using it, and are not using it in the sense that you imply they are. Atheists "ought" not say what they don't want to, and most of us don't.Atheists do not use the word in the sense you are using it though.
I don't know any Atheist who would say that. Perhaps it could be said in the context of questioning why religious folk would worship, but definitely not for reason why someone is an atheist.... because... being atheist doesn't mean to reject worship of gods you consider real. That would mean this person was not an atheist.The most common objection to Christianity that I have heard goes something like,
God ought not to have wanted people to worship Him. Since He does, I cannot go along with that.
All of these remarks carry with them the notion that something ought not to be the case, i.e. that God ought not do this or command that or this etc. Or that if God existed, the world ought not to be the way it is...
Why not?
You must not read people's posts.
If there is an "ought" which is objective, what can that possibly be but God's own point of view?
When an atheist says things ought to be a certain way, he is imposing his own desires upon the universe. The universe doesn't much care.
God is a liars paradox to a Athiest.
Seems you agree with me. Apart from a competent moral prescriber, the notions of moral prescriptions and moral duties and obligations are unintelligible.
I think that I am a competent moral prescriber. I've done all right, so far.
That was the distinction that our english teacher tried to tell us about "ought" and "should". I wonder if that is easier for a (careful, observant) non-native english speaker to understand, especially for us Germans. Both "ought" and "should" are formed with the conditional form of the verb "sollen".It's possible that "ought" is being used in different ways in this thread.
Ought can be used in a way that is in my opinion rather silly. Example:
I go to college in order to get a job, but I fail to get a job due to my choice of major and the difficulties of a poor job market. I whine petulantly that "I ought to have a job by now!"
One might have that belief due to means-end reasoning (college degree -> job) and a notion of causality. Of course, it is short-sighted to think that causality will always work in one's favor because there may be causal influences entirely outside of one's control. Even the best laid plans can go awry. One could associate the idea of an ought with divine plans, since they presumably can never go awry. In that case, causality is at least in part divine causality.
But that's not how many atheists are going to view the subject of oughts. Oughts are simply about moral obligations, not about predictions of how the world will unfold. That's an important distinction to make.
eudaimonia,
Mark
That was the distinction that our english teacher tried to tell us about "ought" and "should". I wonder if that is easier for a (careful, observant) non-native english speaker to understand, especially for us Germans. Both "ought" and "should" are formed with the conditional form of the verb "sollen".
True. It implies the person saying that is putting their own opinion above everyone else, including God.Ought doesn't imply a planner.
I rest my case.If God were good he ought to act within a reasonable moral standard that we would understand.
This claim is in need of support.My mechanic can tell me that if I want to be able to drive my car for a long time, I ought to have regular maintenance performed on it.
But this does not obligate me to have regular maintenance done on my car. I may very well want the engine to blow up so that I can get my dad to buy me a new car.
The fact that an engine performs well under certain conditions in no way obligates me to make sure those conditions are met.
Likewise, in the absence of God, it may be true that our species thrives under certain conditions, like any other thing that can thrive, a blade of grass, or a moth, or a bat, or a roach. But the fact that this is so in no way obligates me to see to it that these conditions are met.
In the absence of God, a male of the homo sapien species has no obligation to refrain from taking another of the same species and forcefully copulating with it. Sharks and other species of life do this frequently.
True. It implies the person saying that is putting their own opinion above everyone else, including God.
I rest my case.
This claim is in need of support.
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