OT Saints

[msortwell]

Were OT saints (believers) "born again?" Please explain your answer.

 

[Hank77]

Born again is a fairly new term when it comes to describing what it means to be saved. You won't hear that expression used in the writings of Christians even in the 1800's.
Romans 11:1-4 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

imho I believe the OT saints were just as saved as Christians are today. They were just waiting for their Messiah to show up. After all it is God who saves and He was quite capable of saving and keeping before the cross as He is now.

 

[ewq1938]

Were OT saints (believers) "born again?" Please explain your answer.

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


The implication is that being born again was not a new teaching and "masters" of scripture should have known this already.

1 Sam 10:6-9

6 And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.
7 And let it be, when these signs are come unto thee, that thou do as occasion serve thee; for God is with thee.
8 And thou shalt go down before me to Gilgal; and, behold, I will come down unto thee, to offer burnt offerings, and to sacrifice sacrifices of peace offerings: seven days shalt thou tarry, till I come to thee, and shew thee what thou shalt do.
9 And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart: and all those signs came to pass that day.

Is being a new man and having a new heart after receiving the Holy Spirit the same as being born again spiritually? I say yes!



Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This all sounds like "born again" language IMO.

 

[Hank77]

Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

That is another I was trying to remember.

 

[sdowney717]

John 7:38-40New King James Version (NKJV)
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Who Is He?
40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, “Truly this is the Prophet.”

In the OT, Christ was not yet glorified as He is now. So the OT saints would not have had the indwelling Holy Spirit and neither did His apostles before Christ was glorified.

John 14:15-18New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Renew a right spirit within me, does not mean to be born anew from above, born again, since that only needs happen once.
To be renewed implies the person was priorly made new and could be renewed and made clean again multiple times.
The OT saints had to have continual sacrifices performed for sins But if they were born again by the Spirit, that would not have been needed, they would have been perfected with no need of Christ's sacrifice.

And King Saul was made into a different man, meaning His mindset and demeanor was transformed, not his spirit or God would not have rejected Saul. Saul rejected the word of the LORD.
1 Samuel 15
26 But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel.”

 

[Celestial Warrior]

YES, JOB CONFIRMS THIS, HE KNEW HE WAS SAVED LONG AGO:

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 14:13 ¶ O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Were OT saints (believers) "born again?" Please explain your answer.

 

[Hank77]

John 7:38-40New King James Version (NKJV)
38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Who Is He?
40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, “Truly this is the Prophet.”

In the OT, Christ was not yet glorified as He is now. So the OT saints would not have had the indwelling Holy Spirit and neither did His apostles before Christ was glorified.

John 14:15-18New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus Promises Another Helper
15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Renew a right spirit within me, does not mean to be born anew from above, born again, since that only needs happen once.
To be renewed implies the person was priorly made new and could be renewed and made clean again multiple times.
The OT saints had to have continual sacrifices performed for sins But if they were born again by the Spirit, that would not have been needed, they would have been perfected with no need of Christ's sacrifice.

And King Saul was made into a different man, meaning His mindset and demeanor was transformed, not his spirit or God would not have rejected Saul. Saul rejected the word of the LORD.
1 Samuel 15
26 But Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you, for you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel.”

David had a lot to say about this. God could give the Holy Spirit to anyone He chose to at any time He chose to. Personally I think David nailed what it really means to be born again from above. To be justified (made righteous) and sanctified (made holy) by God because one cannot do it themselves.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Psa 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Psa 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Notice verse 16 and 17. Sound familiar? See also Psalm 40 in relationship to the Messiah/the Redeemer coming.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

 

[Soyeong]

Pharisaic Judaism taught that there were eight ways to become born again and Nicodemus qualified for six of them:

http://www.hadavar.org/getting-to-know-god/you-must-be-born-again/

 

[Hank77]

Pharisaic Judaism taught that there were eight ways to become born again and Nicodemus qualified for six of them:

http://www.hadavar.org/getting-to-know-god/you-must-be-born-again/

Longer but well worth the read, thanks.

 

[Butch5]

Were OT saints (believers) "born again?" Please explain your answer.

"Born Again" was a metaphor that Jesus used when speaking with Nicodemus. It referred to his physical birth as a Jew and how it wasn't sufficient to gain him entrance into the Kingdom of God.

 

[sdowney717]

David had a lot to say about this. God could give the Holy Spirit to anyone He chose to at any time He chose to. Personally I think David nailed what it really means to be born again from above. To be justified (made righteous) and sanctified (made holy) by God because one cannot do it themselves.

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
Psa 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Psa 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
Psa 51:13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
Psa 51:14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
Psa 51:15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
Psa 51:16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Notice verse 16 and 17. Sound familiar? See also Psalm 40 in relationship to the Messiah/the Redeemer coming.
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

Even the apostles were not yet born again, Jesus says 'will be in you'.
The Holy Spirit dwelled with them, among them but was not yet in them.
If OT saints were born again, why not the 12 apostles?
I can not imagine being born again without Him actually living inside, which would be God and Christ making their home in you.
And it was after Christ's resurrection when He said to them.


John 20:18-22New King James Version (NKJV)
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that He had spoken these things to her.

The Apostles Commissioned
19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” 20 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[sdowney717]

1 Peter 1:3New King James Version (NKJV)
A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

v3 here says we are begotten again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that only happened in the New Testament...

 

[Hank77]

1 Peter 1:3New King James Version (NKJV)
A Heavenly Inheritance
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

v3 here says we are begotten again through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that only happened in the New Testament...

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

If Christ was not resurrected then we have no hope, for we and the OT saints will not be resurrected either.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

 

[sdowney717]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

If Christ was not resurrected then we have no hope, for we and the OT saints will not be resurrected either.

Being born again is enabled by the resurrection of Christ and not beforehand.
This resurrection occurs as part of the New Covenant not the Old Covenant.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Regarding the difference between old and New, in the NC, man's spirits are perfected in Christ " to the spirits of just men made perfect,"
In the Old Covenant, man's spirits were not made perfect, in fact it says so in Hebrews 11.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Hebrews 12
18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

Jesus tells us we shall be perfected in the New Covenant. This is accomplished by God's transforming power working in us who believe.
Matthew 5:48
Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

 

[Hank77]

Even the apostles were not yet born again, Jesus says 'will be in you'.
The Holy Spirit dwelled with them, among them but was not yet in them.
If OT saints were born again, why not the 12 apostles?
I can not imagine being born again without Him actually living inside, which would be God and Christ making their home in you.
And it was after Christ's resurrection when He said to them.

Are you saying that you do not believe that God answered David's prayer in Psalm 51? When David asks for a new spirit, a new heart, that God did not give it to him? When David asks God not to take His Holy Spirit from him, that he did not have it, he just thought he did?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thought to think about . "Selah".

Faith perhaps did not change - Faith in OT and NT is Faith. (Living , active, vibrant, relying on YHWH)


SO, what DID change ?

(almost NEVER seen in "religious" cirlces even)

What DID change ?

WHAT is the difference between all the man sponsored religion on earth,
and the BIBLE DESCRIPTION
of WHAT Y'SHUA DID for us/ mankind/ ?

The DIFFERENCE that DAVID did not benefit from yet, EXCEPT BY FAITH. (GREAT BENEFIT! But still needed this ONE THING) ....

The DIFFERENCE that MOSES, ABRAHAM, DANIEL, JOB, JOSEPH, NOAH, all did not have yet, in the OT, before Y'SHUA'S SACRIFICIAL CRUCIFIXION ?

Are you saying that you do not believe that God answered David's prayer in Psalm 51? When David asks for a new spirit, a new heart, that God did not give it to him? When David asks God not to take His Holy Spirit from him, that he did not have it, he just thought he did?

 

[sdowney717]

Are you saying that you do not believe that God answered David's prayer in Psalm 51? When David asks for a new spirit, a new heart, that God did not give it to him? When David asks God not to take His Holy Spirit from him, that he did not have it, he just thought he did?

Saul it was said of him that he was changed into a different man which others claim = born again status. Yet Saul rejected the word of the Lord, so that proves Saul was not born of God- born again - born of the Holy Spirit, Saul was disobedient and if you read about his life afterwards, you can see King Saul turned into a bad king bearing bad fruit and Christ says that means they have evil hearts. Read Matthew 12:33-37 and Matthew 7:15-20.

David's prayer is to be renewed , create in me a clean heart oh God, yet as I previously showed you, those in the OC did not receive the promise since they were not to be perfected before Christ came, yet still they had faith and yes all of the OT saints were eventually redeemed from Hell-Paradise after they died and are now with the Lord. The OT saints could be renewed and made clean multiple times, but in the NC we are made clean and it lasts since we are born again.

Hebrews 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

Your just not really listening to what the scripture says about the NC versus the OC.
Hebrews 8
A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Hank77]

Regarding the difference between old and New, in the NC, man's spirits are perfected in Christ " to the spirits of just men made perfect,"
In the Old Covenant, man's spirits were not made perfect, in fact it says so in Hebrews 11.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

My thoughts on these verses.....

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,

The promise is the Messiah, even though they by faith believed their Redeemer was coming, He had not been manifested on the earth, and so they were by faith waiting for Him.

40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The better thing, the New Covenant, the Gospel, which is freely offered to all nations of people. God would have His church complete. That not only those of the circumcision should be His but also those of the uncircumcision who by faith turn to God. Not only those who believed before the cross but those who would believe after the cross.
None of us have yet been glorified. We live in a corruptible flesh body and can still be tempted by satan. We wait also for Him, for the resurrection, for the change that will make us like Him, to this perfection that will be given to those who faithfully wait. This is the hope that our faith sees that is still unseen. Just like Abraham we wait for the things we see by faith that are yet unseen.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Saul it was said of him that he was changed into a different man which others claim = born again status.

This is written - Saul became a different man.
Not for good, no.
Not born again, no.
He turned into another man, inside, into a bad man.
This happens the opposite one time in Scripture
that no one acknowledges. (as far as I know).
Someone becomes an 'other' .... 'different' .... simple ......
as YHWH and Y'SHUA planned all along thru eternity forever before time and thru all time and after time itself ends, forever more....