Orthodox view of justification

Sorry Lotar, I actually left one thing out by mistake. Cardinal Kasper was contrasting the crushing burden of sin that Luther felt with the current state of Western Europe. I think he was actually giving a nod to Lutheranism there. The rise of secularism seems to be affecting historically Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican countries alike with an even hand for the most part.

Oh, I see now. I agree with that, nobody sees themselves as sinful any more. People think they deserve salvation.

I've heard one too many "Luther is responsible for athiesm" arguements

Philip said:

I like the NET translation of Romans 3:25 where 'propitiation' is replaced by 'mercy seat':

Romans 3:25-26

God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed. This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus’ faithfulness.
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The following translation note is included:

33tn The word iJlasthvrion (Jilasthrion) may carry the general sense “place of satisfaction,” referring to the place where God’s wrath toward sin is satisfied. More likely, though, it refers specifically to the “mercy seat,” i.e., the covering of the ark where the blood was sprinkled in the OT ritual on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). This term is used only one other time in the NT: Heb 9:5, where it is rendered “mercy seat.” There it describes the altar in the most holy place (holy of holies). Thus Paul is saying that God displayed Jesus as the “mercy seat,” the place where propitiation was accomplished. See N. S. L. Fryer, “The Meaning and Translation of Hilasterion in Romans 3:25,” EvQ 59 (1987): 99-116, who concludes the term is a neuter accusative substantive best translated “mercy seat” or “propitiatory covering,” and D. P. Bailey, “Jesus As the Mercy Seat: The Semantics and Theology of Paul’s Use of Hilasterion in Romans 3:25” (Ph.D. diss., University of Cambridge, 1999), who argues that this is a direct reference to the mercy seat which covered the ark of the covenant.

34tn The prepositional phrase diaV pivstew" (dia pistew") here modifies the noun iJlasthvrion (Jilasthrion). As such it forms a complete noun phrase and could be written as “mercy-seat-accessible-through-faith” to emphasize the singular idea. See Rom 1:4 for a similar construction. The word “accessible” is not in the Greek text but has been supplied to clarify the idea expressed by the prepositional phrase (cf. NRSV: “effective through faith”).
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Nice! I noticed my LSJ also lists mercy seat as a possible definition of hilasterion( I'm too lazy to switch fonts to render it in Greek ) This makes a nice connection with the Levitical sacrifices and the Old Testament never really describes those sacrifices as appeasing God's wrath, but simply as a means of atonement and a covering of sins.

I was just reading this article about fasting...and came across this interesting paragraph:

http://www.stmaryorthodoxchurch.org/orthodoxy/sermons/2004-03-12-mcdowell.php

Justice in scripture is not simply about giving a person their due, which is the classical definition of justice. Justice is not procedural regulations which enforce individual’s rights and duties, and punish those who break the law. Justice is not primarily about retribution. In scripture, justice is about restoration. Justice is about restoring the land to those who have lost it, about placing a limit on the length of time over which a debt can be called in. Justice is both providing for those in need, the sick, the poor, the blind, the captive, the oppressed, as well as enabling them to care for themselves. It is about restoring not only people to their full abilities, the sight to the blind, but restoring people to their full roles as participants in their communities.

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I've often read and heard that in Orthodoxy, there is a restoration taking place in us. A restoration that brings us back to the Garden of Eden, where we can dwell with God and see Him. There is a restoration of our spiritual senses, which are in a drunken sleep. It is a dynamic process. Is this idea comparable to "justification'?

We agree with all of that accept we split it up into regeneration, justification, and sanctification.

Lotar said:

We agree with all of that accept we split it up into regeneration, justification, and sanctification.

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Okay...in Orthodoxy we have:

purification, illumination, and deification (theosis)

From Orthodox Spirituality by Met. Hierotheos

"Living within the Church by grace, man must first cleanse his heart of the passions; attain the illumination of the nous --(Adam's state before the fall)--and then ascend to theosis, which constitutes man's communion and union with God and is identified with salvation. These are the steps of spiritual perfection--the foundation of Orthodox spirituality."

"In Orthodox spirituality, purification, illumination and theosis are not stages of anthropocentric activity, but rather they are results of the uncreated energy of God. When the divine grace (energy of God) purifies man from passions, it is called purifying; when it illumines his nous it is called illuminating; and when it deifies man it is called deifying. This same grace and energy of God is given various names according to its effects."

(I'm led to believe that you can fluctuate from one step to another. e.g. When you fall, you must again be purified...)

Photini said:

(I'm led to believe that you can fluctuate from one step to another. e.g. When you fall, you must again be purified...)

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That seems to be my understanding as well, that this process may go in cycles and may not even be finished during your time on earth. It's a constant process of falling, picking up and trying to move forward. I think there would be a suspicion in Orthodoxy of instantaneous results or certainty of salvation.

Thinking about this topic tonight, I remembered there was a sonnet written by W.H. Auden entitled "Luther", the last lines read:

"All Works and all Societies are bad;
The Just shall live by Faith," he cried in dread.
And men and women of the world were glad
Who never trembled in their useful lives."

I thought this was such a wonderful and incredibly believable portrait when I read it. Luther undergoing intense spiritual struggle while surrounded by the ordinary burghers simply proceeding with their lives as normal. People who had never considered the nature of salvation as he had.

The breakthrough Luther found in his reading of Romans gave him peace, but there always seemed to be doubt that lingered. The problem was the corollary to justification, i.e. assurance. People began to wonder if I am justified by faith, what is faith? How do I know I have it? Luther came up with things later in his life like different types of righteousness, but he still struggled. He said "if we teach faith, carnal people will neglect works; and if we urge works, faith and the comfort of conscience will be lost". Though justification by faith gave him the relief he sought early on, I think he came to realize the ethical quandary that treating faith and works as separate and antithetical actions could lead to. I think this quandary is still something that dogs Protestant thinking.

Wow, Rilian. Thank you for your thoughts. I confess that I know very little about Luther. Your posts are very helpful.

That seems to be my understanding as well, that this process may go in cycles and may not even be finished during your time on earth. It's a constant process of falling, picking up and trying to move forward. I think there would be a suspicion in Orthodoxy of instantaneous results or certainty of salvation.

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Agreed. Certainly nothing is instantaneous, because sin is perceived as being rooted very deep into our hearts. And as a tree, we can chop off the branches and never kill the tree; it will just keep mending itself and growing more branches. The roots must be dug up.

Thinking about this topic tonight, I remembered there was a sonnet written by W.H. Auden entitled "Luther", the last lines read:

"All Works and all Societies are bad;
The Just shall live by Faith," he cried in dread.
And men and women of the world were glad
Who never trembled in their useful lives."

I thought this was such a wonderful and incredibly believable portrait when I read it. Luther undergoing intense spiritual struggle while surrounded by the ordinary burghers simply proceeding with their lives as normal. People who had never considered the nature of salvation as he had.

The breakthrough Luther found in his reading of Romans gave him peace, but there always seemed to be doubt that lingered. The problem was the corollary to justification, i.e. assurance. People began to wonder if I am justified by faith, what is faith? How do I know I have it? Luther came up with things later in his life like different types of righteousness, but he still struggled. He said "if we teach faith, carnal people will neglect works; and if we urge works, faith and the comfort of conscience will be lost". Though justification by faith gave him the relief he sought early on, I think he came to realize the ethical quandary that treating faith and works as separate and antithetical actions could lead to. I think this quandary is still something that dogs Protestant thinking.

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St. Seraphim of Sarov said, "Faith is the beginning of our union with God."

I find it interesting that in the East, there has never (that I'm aware of) been a struggle with the faith/works like there has been in the West. And looking at some various posts around CF, I'm unsure that people even have the same idea in mind when we say the word "works."

Luther's commentary on Romans is a truly beautiful work, my all time favorite.

The relationship between faith and works is a tricky one. We often get accused, by the sects, of really believing in faith + works as opposed to faith alone. I guess if you compare us to Calvinists that can be true. Just like sola scriptura, what we really meant by the term got obscured and twisted by others.

Here's a nice quote by my new second favorite theologian, Martin Chemnitz:

The Testimonies of Scripture are clear, that the renewal of the new man, as also the mortification of the old, is not perfect and complete in this life but that it grows and is increased day by day until it is perfected in the next life, when this corruptible will have put on incorruption. Profitable also and necessary in the church are exhortations that the the regenerate should not neglect, extinguish, or cast away the gifts of the Spirit which they have recieved but that they stir them up with true and earnest exercises, calling on the help of the Holy Spirit, that He may give an increase of faith, hope, love, and of the other spiritual gifts; for what the punishment of spiritual neglligence is the parable of spiritual negligence is the parable of the talents shows. There is also no doubt that faith is effectual through love, that it is the mother goods works, and that good works please God through faith for the sake of Christ. And in this sense the statement in James 2:21-24 can be understood and accepted appropriately and rightly, that through the numerous good works that followed Abraham is declared to have been truly justified by faith, and it is shown that faith is not empty and dead, but true and living.

What many westerners (although evidently not Lutherans, or at least not officially) seem to misunderstand is that when St. Paul spoke of works as inefficacious, he was talking about works done without faith, in some kind of effort to climb to God on one's own. That misunderstanding has created what I call "salvation-by-works anxiety," sometimes so severe that, in their minds, faith, confession, baptism and even participating in the Eucharist become "works." In extreme cases, this causes anti-sacramentalism.

This morning as I was saying my prayers, this prayer stuck out to me...since the best way to learn what the Church teaches and believes, is to pray and worship with Her:

"O my plenteously-merciful and all-merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and become incarnate so that Thou mightest save all. And again, O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee. For if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty; yea, Thou Who art great in compassion and ineffable in mercy. For he that believeth in Me, Thou hast said, O my Christ, shall live and never see death. If, then, faith in Thee saveth the desperate, behold, I believe, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Let faith instead of works be imputed to me, O my God, for Thou wilt find no works which could justify me. But may my faith suffice instead of all works, may it answer for, may it acquit me, may it make me a partaker of Thine eternal glory. And let Satan not seize me and boast, O Word, that he hath torn me from Thy hand and fold. But whether I desire it or not, save me, O Christ my Saviour, forestall me quickly, quickly, for I perish. Thou art my God from my mother's womb. Vouchsafe me, O Lord, to love Thee now as fervently as I once loved sin itself, and also to work for Thee without idleness, diligently, as I worked before for deceptive Satan. But supremely shall I work for Thee, my Lord and God, Jesus Christ, all the days of my life, now and ever, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

-from the Morning Prayers in the Jordanville Prayerbook, Prayer VIII

St. Symeon the New Theologian also has some wonderful passages on this. But I'll have to get to them later.

Photini said:

Wow, Rilian. Thank you for your thoughts.

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Thanks, sometimes I get a little worried I may just be boring people to tears.

Photini said:

St. Seraphim of Sarov said, "Faith is the beginning of our union with God."

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I think the quote by St. Seraphim is a good one, faith is the beginning. I think in Orthodoxy justification and redemption are viewed in preliminary terms. They are the first steps in fulfilling the eschatological purposes of God, not simply that we will believe and have faith in him, but that we will become partakers in the divine nature to bring the circle of creation to a close.