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Orthodox view of effects of Adam's sin

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countrymousenc

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Forgive the double post, but this probably ought to be a new thread:


Originally Posted by: MosestheBlack

We don't teach the Immaculate Conception because we don't believe that children are concieved and/or born with the guilt of Adam.

To Protestant ears this usually sounds like Pelagianism. What is the difference between Pelagianism and Orthodox teaching about the results of Adam's sin and its effects on the whole human race?
 

Photini

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Here's a clip from the Metroplitan of Nafpaktos, Hierotheos' book, The Mind of the Orthodox Church. I love his books. He has a very simple way of putting things, that even simple minds like mine can kind of grasp.

http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b12.en.the_mind_of_the_orthodox_church.06.htm#c1



<H3>1. The fall and restoration of man
</H3>
 
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Photini

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countrymousenc said:
Thanks, Photini

I have to admit, though, it doesn't look that simple to me! I think it's going to take more than one or two readings for me to quite grasp what's being said.
I pretty much had to wipe my slate clean of alot of things when I first started reading books on Orthodox doctrines. I thought my brain was going to explode a couple of times because of the *revelations* that were always in front of my face, but I never saw them.
 
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Eusebios

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Remember countrymouse, Photini is a self-described bookworm Seriously though, I agree with her and you. Orthodxy, when understood properly causes lots of Homer Simpson like head slapping, doh!
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
 
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countrymousenc

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Eusebios said:
Remember countrymouse, Photini is a self-described bookworm
So that's why I like her! (One of my struggles is going to be putting down the books to give enough time to the housework. I don't do that so well.)

Seriously though, I agree with her and you. Orthodoxy, when understood properly causes lots of Homer Simpson like head slapping, doh!
Yes, in fact, I've already felt sheepish several times. I've just finished a little volume with 1st Clement, the letters of St. Ignatius, St. Polycarp, a letter written by (St.?) Barnabus, and the Didache. Now into the Shepherd of Hermas, and St. Athanasius' On the Incarnation. It seems important to me to understand the early Fathers before going on to the later ones, but I'll see what Fr. Bill has to say! (First visit this morning - got to go get ready.)

In Christ,
Dianne
 
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Eusebios

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countrymousenc said:

So that's why I like her! (One of my struggles is going to be putting down the books to give enough time to the housework. I don't do that so well.)
I'm reading 5 or 6 books myself at the moment, excluding my school reading

So Dianne, how did it go? And by the way, you're one highly literate "mouse"
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
 
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countrymousenc

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Eusebios said:
So Dianne, how did it go? And by the way, you're one highly literate "mouse"

I loved it! LoL, nobody had three eyes or two heads, and none of it seemed strange or suspicious. I've heard that the OCA has a more "Western" kind of atmosphere than the other Orthodox churches, so maybe that accounts for it. Everyone was really nice, but nobody was pushy.

I can't think why I'd want to worship any other way; it felt like finally getting home. The first couple I met after arriving lives in a town about 15 miles north of where I live, and there are people driving as much as an hour and a half to attend.

My husband and younger son didn't go with me this time, but they will be attending with me at intervals, or at least that was our agreement. Fr. Bill expressed reticence about "breaking up families." (I explained that Hubby and son already decided on the United Methodist church around the corner, because they're comfortable there.) I know that it wouldn't be easy to live the Orthodox life with a non-Orthodox family, but I hope that I'm not barred from converting on the basis that my family doesn't want to regularly attend or convert.

I hope Fr. Bill is prepared to be peppered with questions by email!

Your friend in Christ,
Dianne
 
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Matrona

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Oblio said:
Come to think of it. I may have you confused with another inquirer in the SE
Momzilla is the one who lives near St. John of the Ladder.

It's so cool that so many people on here live near me. I keep wondering if one Sunday, two of us are going to run into each other and not even realize it! (It almost happened to me once--one of my online Orthodox friends visited a parish in my city while on a trip, and we didn't realize it until after he got back home.)
 
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Eusebios

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Dianne,
Great to hear that things went well. My wife and I are OCA and really love it, though we here in NE Ohio are very blessed in that there are many Orthodox Churches, and for the most part, they really work together.
There are also a number of family situations that I am aware of that are similar to yours, and it doesn't present a permanent bar to membership by any stretch of the imagination. The priests response is both prudent and typical, a good priest it seems never rushes anybody to convert.
Keep us updated. I am delighted that you had such a positive experience.
His unworthy servant,
Eusebios.
 
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MariaRegina

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Dear Countrymouse:

A similar situation happened with me. My son and I wanted to convert to Orthodoxy but my husband didn't. The priest said that he preferred to receive an entire family all together so as not to split the family and possibly cause a divorce. Orthodoxy honors the Sacrament of Marriage and tries to keep marriages intact. When a spouse converts without permission of the other, it causes marital strife.

By taking this approach, the Priest will be respected by your husband. My husband was so impressed that the Priest was concerned for our salvation, that he made an appointment to see the Priest. Within one month, he too desired to be received into Orthodoxy.

I'll pray for you.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth
 
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countrymousenc

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Thanks, Elizabeth

My husband has given me permission to go and to convert, anywhere I wish, and we don't either one believe in divorce. (If we did, we'd not likely have made it this far - 25 years and counting! and it's been anything but easy.) Lee realized that I couldn't worship and that I was miserable in the church where Chris, our 14-year-old, wants to go. Essentially, he let Chris choose the church, partly for fear that Chris would refuse to go anywhere else. Lee and Chris worked out an agreement between them that they would go to church with me about once a month, and when Chris is 18, Lee will go to church with me, but has no intention of converting, himself (because he'd have to go to confession).

There wasn't enough time yesterday to fully explain this to Fr. Bill. Lee and I are committed to working this out in a way that both of us can live with and that best serves Chris's needs for the time being.

I am comforted to know that you're praying for us.

Love in Christ,
Dianne
 
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The Prokeimenon!

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To Protestant ears this usually sounds like Pelagianism. What is the difference between Pelagianism and Orthodox teaching about the results of Adam's sin and its effects on the whole human race?

I believe that the heresy of Pelagianism states that man is born without the guilt or consequences of Adam's sin, and is therefore able to save himself without the Grace of God.

Orthodoxy states that while man is not born guilty , he is nonetheless born into a sinful world, where the body is subject to death, and the spirit is a slave to the bodily passions. It is necessary to cooperate with God's Grace in order to restore a man to his intended human nature.

Adam's sin did not make anybody guilty (except Adam), but it did result in the corruption of creation. We must have the Grace of God to restore our nature to it's Adamic state.

I hope I'm not causing more confusion- perhaps a more eloquent writer could elaborate- I'm confusing myself with words

Moses
 
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