Orthodox -- universalism?

[Soft Rains]

Does eastern orthodox theology lead to the conclusion of universalism? Does anybody know about this parish? I am visiting this Sunday.

 

[gzt]

we are not universalist.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Universalism, the idea that all people will be saved because God cannot allow them to perish, is a heresy. This is the way it has been explained to me: Humans are made in God's image and therefore are endowed with free will. Some will choose to accept God's love while others will reject it. That is hell and condemnation for them. It is God's will for all to be saved but He cannot override the free will He gave us at creation. True love cannot be compelled.

If I got any of this wrong I am sure someone will correct me.

I hope you enjoy your visit to St. George Come back and tell us your thoughts!

Monica

 

[Matrona]

Does eastern orthodox theology lead to the conclusion of universalism? Does anybody know about this parish? I am visiting this Sunday.

That is an Antiochian parish, and the service will probably be all in English. Antiochian Orthodoxy first came to this country from the Middle East so they might have some Arabic spoken in the liturgy, too.

Orthodox theology is a little tricky about universalism. We believe that all souls will behold the face of God. The state of your soul determines how you experience His love. If you are a Godly person, God's love will burn in you, making it heaven, but if you are ungodly, God's love will be agonizing burning misery, making it hell. For a meatier explanation, ask an Orthodox priest.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

HI!

Looks like a good parish to me. Let us know how it goes!

 

[Padraig]

Universalism, the idea that all people will be saved because God cannot allow them to perish, is a heresy.
Monica

I think it important to note that it has never been condemned as heresy. It's never really been addressed within an ecumenical council to my understanding. There is a strain of thought within Tradition held by such Fathers as St Isaac the Syrian, St Gregory of Nyssa, and I believe Maximus the Confessor who say there is a possibility that all will be saved. St Isaac goes the to the extreme and says it is even possible for the devil himself to be saved if he so desired it meaning that Christ died for all. As Fr Lev Gillet said, "No one is excluded from our prayers."

Our liturgical life bears this out on Holy Saturday (at least I believe it's Holy Saturday) when we pray for those in hell, knowing that it benefits them. This is not to say we know "how" they are benefitted from our prayers, just that they are. As Fr Hopko said once, "this is something we hope for, but we dare not preach it." Hope this helps.

Slainte,
Padraig

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I think it important to note that it has never been condemned as heresy. It's never really been addressed within an ecumenical council to my understanding.

I thought Origen was condemned as a heretic along with his "impious teaching" which included universalism.

There is a strain of thought within Tradition held by such Fathers as St Isaac the Syrian, St Gregory of Nyssa, and I believe Maximus the Confessor who say there is a possibility that all will be saved. St Isaac goes the to the extreme and says it is even possible for the devil himself to be saved if he so desired it meaning that Christ died for all. As Fr Lev Gillet said, "No one is excluded from our prayers."

I think there is a difference in believing that all will be saved and saying that all can be saved. We know that God does not condemn anyone. He wants us all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. But if we in our free will, reject God, we condemn ourselves to torment in God's loving presence.

As Fr Hopko said once, "this is something we hope for, but we dare not preach it."

I agree, we can hope for it. My fear is that people who believe in Universalism do not see the very real harm in rejecting God and His clear teachings "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. --Hebrews 10:31"

Monica

 

[Rilian]

The problem with universalism, as with all forms of determinism, is that it is a violation of human freedom and abjures man of his moral responsibilities. A God who compels people to accept him (universalism) is just as ethically dubious as a God who willingly sends a portion of his creation to eternal damnation (particularism).

God's love and offer of new life are universal, but how many accept is known only to him. We do have the choice though.

 

[katherine2001]

Salvation is a matter of free will. God would love to save everyone, but the fact is, not everyone is going to choose Him. As Matrona said, nobody is going to be cut off from His love, but people will experience it differently. If you love God, then you will bask in His love and it will be paradise. To those who don't want His love and have tried everything to get away from that love, it will be Hell, because they will be in His love for eternity and they don't want it.

 

[Padraig]

I thought Origen was condemned as a heretic along with his "impious teaching" which included universalism.



I think there is a difference in believing that all will be saved and saying that all can be saved. We know that God does not condemn anyone. He wants us all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth. But if we in our free will, reject God, we condemn ourselves to torment in God's loving presence.

Monica

Origen was not condemned specifically for believing in universal salvation. It was more his belief in pre-existence of souls and neo-platonism that got him into trouble. We also have to remember that Origen and Origenism are two different things. Others, like Gregory of Nyssa (who was a student of Origen) continued with the belief in universal salvation without condemnation.

In this view, God is not forcing anyone to be saved. The view, at least held by the Fathers I listed in my previous post, is that ultimately everyone will choose to accept God's love. It might even happen after death. There is support for this in varying ways of reading Scripture, at least in their understanding. It is important, as with every issue, to remember that it is not the consensus - and therefore not the teaching - of the Church, but there are those within the Church who hold the belief.

I must say again, though, that the Church believes something like it when we pray for those souls trapped in hell. This is not simply a strain of thought amongst a few fathers, this is the worship of the Church. Remember lex orandi lex credendi? Rule of prayer, rule of faith. We pray what we believe and we believe what we pray.

I will not say that the Church teaches all will be saved, nor does anyone else with a lick of sense, but I will say that it is not a forgone conclusion.

Slainte,
Padraig

 

[Emmanuel-A]

I think it important to note that it has never been condemned as heresy. It's never really been addressed within an ecumenical council to my understanding.

The fact that a doctrine has never been condemned as heresy nor been addressed within an ecumenical council is not enough to make it true.

As far as I know, Universalism was condemned by the Constantinopolitan Synod in 543.

 

[Padraig]

The fact that a doctrine has never been condemned as heresy nor been addressed within an ecumenical council is not enough to make it true.

As far as I know, Universalism was condemned by the Constantinopolitan Synod in 543.

You are absolutely correct. Just because it was never condemned does not make it true. I don't claim that it is true, just that there is a belief within the Church, and the Church's liturgical life bears a similarity to that belief.

As to the Synod, I don't doubt that it was condemned, but Synod's condemned people all the time just to "uncondemn" them later when there was a new primate. This should not be taken to mean the Church has authoritatively condemned the belief.

Again, we may not teach, or believe, universal salvation. But there is obviously a belief akin to it within our worship. I don't know how it all works out. At seminary, it'd be depending on which prof you asked. Some are more sympathetic to the belief, others less so.

The safest thing is to hope for it, but not teach it as the "teaching of the Church."


Slainte,
Padraig

 

[Rilian]

Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos addressed universal salvation/restoration of all things in his book Life after Death. The chapter on it is here. In it he deals specifically with the views of St. Gregory of Nyssa which he feels have been misunderstood. It's a good read.

 

[MariaRegina]

The witnesses and teachings of both St. Maximus the Confessor and St. Mark Engenicus, who are pillars of Orthodoxy, show that the teaching of St. Gregory of Nyssa concerning the restoration of all things differs clearly from the view of the restoration of all things which we find in ancient philosophy and the Origenist conception, which the Fifth Ecumentical Council condemned.

quoted from: http://www.pelagia.org/htm/b24.en.life_after_death.08.htm#re3e

 

[Padraig]

Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos addressed universal salvation/restoration of all things in his book Life after Death. The chapter on it is here. In it he deals specifically with the views of St. Gregory of Nyssa which he feels have been misunderstood. It's a good read.

With all due love and respect to Met Heirotheos, I offer this from Elder Sophrony as quoted by Bp Kallistos Ware in his book, The Inner Kingdom:

It was particularly characteristic of Staretz Silouan to pray for the dead suffering in the hell of separation from God...He could not bear to think that anyone would languish in "outer darkness."



I remember a conversation between him and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, "God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire."

Obviously upset, the Staretz said, "Tell me, supposing you went to paradis and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell fire - would you feel happy?

"It can't be helped. It would be their own fault," said the hermit.

The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance. "Love could not bear that," he said. "We must pray for all."


​

Bp Kallistos also quotes the Vespers of Pentecost service (I erroneously said it was Holy Saturday):

On this final and saving festival Thou art pleased to accept intercessory propitiation for those imprisoned in hell, affording us great hopes that Thou wilt send down relaxation and refreshment to all held fast in bondage...


Again, with all due respect to Met Heirotheos, Bp Kallistos views the condemnation of Origen differently. The condemnation was wrapped up in Origen's whole concept of pre-existent souls, a precosmic fall, and final restoration. Bp Kallistos disagrees with Met Heirotheos in the reading of St Gregory of Nyssa as it pertains to Gregory's belief in universal reconciliation. In words of wisdom Bp Kallistos says, "we venture to express the hope - it is no more than a hope... Let us leave the last word, then with St Silouan of Mt Athos:

"Love could not bear it... We must pray for all."



Slainté,

Padraig

 

[Rilian]

Saint Silouan said there is no end to God's love, but he did also say the following

Understand me. It is so simple. People who do not know God, or who go against Him, are to be pitied; the heart sorrows for them and the eye weeps. Both paradise and torment are clearly visible to us: We know this through the Holy Spirit. And did not the Lord Himself say, "The kingdom of God is within you"? Thus eternal life has its beginning here in this life; and it is here that we sow the seeds of eternal torment.

We should pray for all, but we must accept that there are those who willingly reject God. I do it myself in every sinful action I do every day of my life. God will not compel people to come to him though he may love them.

Metropolitan Hierotheos also quotes Elder Sophrony elsewhere in his book, so I don't think he would take up a position contrary to one held by the spiritual child of Saint Silouan. I believe Metropolitan Hierotheos was also present at his panakhida.

 

[OrthodoxTexan]

Heh...I'm getting married in St. George's this summer. They have a beautiful iconostasis. From what I understand, St. Georges is a very "ethnic" community, very arab. Expect a lot of arabic in the liturgy...moreso than you would typically expect in an Antiochian church.

 

[ManM]

The Church does preach universalism in the sense that all are saved from death. The Church does not preach universalism in the sense that all will enjoy the next life.