Orthodox Perspective on the Immaculate conception of Mary!

laconicstudent · Apr 16, 2010

If I can just butt in here.

I was reading The Orthodox Church, Met. Kallistos writes that the Orthodox regard the dogmatism of IC as dangerously unnecessary, because it could lead to a confusion of doctrine about sin, because it separates Mary from the rest of God's created creatures.

He concludes

page 260 said:
From the Orthodox point of view, however, the whole question belongs to the realm of theological opinion; if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe in the Immaculate Conception, he or she could not be termed a heretic for doing so.

Just thought I'd share that, for what its worth.

ikonographics · Apr 16, 2010

"The Orthodox Church" bishop Kallostos Ware is not the Gospel and should not be treated as such. Some of his views are problematic.

Michael G · Apr 16, 2010

ikonographics said:
"The Orthodox Church" bishop Kallostos Ware is not the Gospel and should not be treated as such. Some of his views are problematic.

This reminds me of a comment that an iconographer friend once made about people who read one or two books on iconography and claim to know what they are talking about. The same applies here: "I have read 'The Orthodox Church" by Ware, and thus I know what the Church teaches!"

OrthodoxyUSA · Apr 16, 2010

The all blameless [amepti] Mother of Our God. Does not infer sinlessness.

For those who say that she needed nothing... I would ask what purpose her being in the Temple served? Was it not to keep her whole and pure as possible? She could have fallen to sin at any point. She did not. Her victory over sin is a startling thing to behold. She is the shining star of purity! An example of what a 'mere' human can accomplish.

She has remained 'amepti'... and she stands before THE LORD, risen before us, as testament to what will come for us.

She is our primary intercessor.

Forgive me...

Michael G · Apr 16, 2010

The Theotokoion from the Canon to the Victorious Great Martyr George sheds some light on this:

"Rejoice, pure Theotokos! You are our boast, for though you sprang form mortal parents, you gave birth to the creator! We magnify you as the one who rules over creation."

She sprang from mortal parents. There was nothing supernatural about her birth.

Bessie · Apr 16, 2010

You're right, The Orthodox Church is not the gospel, but it does have a lot of validity and relevant commentary. I'm not sure we need to jump all over an inquirer for posting a quote from it. Discuss the problems with it by all means, but I don't think he was out of line. laconicstudent was not the first one on this thread to mention that it doesn't make you a heretic to believe in it.

Macarius · Apr 16, 2010

I would further add that, while certainly able to err, Kalistos is a metropolitan. At the least, his words are those of an influential bishop. That doesn't make them inerrant - so I've no problem with someone disagreeing with them - but if the question is "how do the Orthodox feel about the Immaculate Conception?" then the words of an important bishop seem perfectly relevant.

I happen to agree with Ware. I know that isn't popular with a few other posters here; but to me the issue is original sin, not the immaculate conception persay. I disagree with the immaculate conception as currently framed by the RCC, for the record.

Kristos · Apr 16, 2010

Michael the Iconographer said:
The Theotokoion from the Canon to the Victorious Great Martyr George sheds some light on this:

"Rejoice, pure Theotokos! You are our boast, for though you sprang form mortal parents, you gave birth to the creator! We magnify you as the one who rules over creation."

She sprang from mortal parents. There was nothing supernatural about her birth.

A hymn from the Conception would seem more appropriate:

Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone
Against all hope, the bonds of barrenness are loosed today. For, God has hearkened unto Joachim and Anna clearly promising that they would bear a godly maiden. He who commanded the angel to cry out to her, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you," will be born of her, the infinite One Himself, becoming man.
Kontakion in the Fourth Tone
Today the world rejoices in the conception of Anna, wrought by God. For she bore the One who beyond comprehension conceived the Logos.

It was very supernatural. Anna was barren, but her prayers were heard by God...against all hope.

Lex orandi, lex credendi

Michael G · Apr 16, 2010

Macarius said:
I would further add that, while certainly able to err, Kalistos is a metropolitan. At the least, his words are those of an influential bishop. That doesn't make them inerrant - so I've no problem with someone disagreeing with them - but if the question is "how do the Orthodox feel about the Immaculate Conception?" then the words of an important bishop seem perfectly relevant.

I happen to agree with Ware. I know that isn't popular with a few other posters here; but to me the issue is original sin, not the immaculate conception persay. I disagree with the immaculate conception as currently framed by the RCC, for the record.

One bishop has the authority of just that, one bishop. He does not speak as the representative of a synodal council of the Church.

Michael G · Apr 16, 2010

Kristos said:
A hymn from the Conception would seem more appropriate:

Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone
Against all hope, the bonds of barrenness are loosed today. For, God has hearkened unto Joachim and Anna clearly promising that they would bear a godly maiden. He who commanded the angel to cry out to her, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you," will be born of her, the infinite One Himself, becoming man.
Kontakion in the Fourth Tone
Today the world rejoices in the conception of Anna, wrought by God. For she bore the One who beyond comprehension conceived the Logos.

It was very supernatural. Anna was barren, but her prayers were heard by God...against all hope.

Lex orandi, lex credendi

I see nothing in your cannon that comes anything close to what the Roman Catholic Church teaches with the Immaculate Conception.

Macarius · Apr 16, 2010

Michael the Iconographer said:
One bishop has the authority of just that, one bishop. He does not speak as the representative of a synodal council of the Church.

I never said he had that authority. Look at what I said. I agreed he is more than capable of error, and said merely that, as a bishop, his opinion is entirely relevant to a discussion of Orthodox views on the Immaculate Conception. If someone wants to quote from a BISHOP on this topic, how is that BAD? If you like, go and quote other bishops who agree with you. I've no doubt they are out there, and their view would be more than relevant.

Whether you like it or not, you are in communion with Kallistos and he is a bishop in the church. His view matters, and his view is an Orthodox view (as he is Orthodox, and a far more authoritative voice on it than you or I; if not for his academic credentials than at the least for his clerical rank and renowned venerability as a voice of Orthodoxy in the West). No one said it was the Orthodox view, yet you are reacting as if they did.

You paint a false dichotomy when you imply that I must either accept Ware as "Gospel" or consider him a "borderline heretic" (both things in quotes are actual words you've said). I am allowed to have actual subtelty in my views, even on an internet forum. I can agree that Kallistos is capable of error while still agreeing with him in this case, and I can believe as I do while still refusing to assert my opinion as actual church dogma.

As for the synodial / conciliar authority of the church, I'm all for that. Neither your view nor mine as of yet has that kind of authority; we would both do well to remember that.

Michael G · Apr 16, 2010

Macarius said:
No one said it was the Orthodox view, yet you are reacting as if they did.

No one has said he is THE Orthodox pov, but they might as well have in the way the title of that book is thrown arround. My point is that there are plenty of Orthodox pov's that counter what he says.

Macarius · Apr 16, 2010

Michael the Iconographer said:
No one has said he is THE Orthodox pov, but they might as well have in the way the title of that book is thrown arround. My point is that there are plenty of Orthodox pov's that counter what he says.

And if someone goes so far as to suggest that his book is an equivalent to the RCC's catechism, I'll be right alongside you fighting for the conciliar views we both believe in.

But it has to at least be ok for someone to quote a major Orthodox writer in a discussion about Orthodox views. Like I said, bring in those other opinions! They would be relevant and ought to be discussed here as well.

Michael G · Apr 16, 2010

Macarius said:
But it has to at least be ok for someone to quote a major Orthodox writer in a discussion about Orthodox views. Like I said, bring in those other opinions! They would be relevant and ought to be discussed here as well.

I would rather just see this thread die. I am so tired of the "us vs. them" threads, comparing us with the RC's. Let us talk about Orthodox Christianity without having to drag Rome into the conversation.

Mary of Bethany · Apr 16, 2010

Kristos said:
A hymn from the Conception would seem more appropriate:

Apolytikion in the Fourth Tone
Against all hope, the bonds of barrenness are loosed today. For, God has hearkened unto Joachim and Anna clearly promising that they would bear a godly maiden. He who commanded the angel to cry out to her, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you," will be born of her, the infinite One Himself, becoming man.
Kontakion in the Fourth Tone
Today the world rejoices in the conception of Anna, wrought by God. For she bore the One who beyond comprehension conceived the Logos.

It was very supernatural. Anna was barren, but her prayers were heard by God...against all hope.

Lex orandi, lex credendi

Lex orandi, lex credendi, indeed. And those are beautiful hymns. St. Anne's conception of the Theotokos was miraculous in that way.

Mary

laconicstudent · Apr 16, 2010

Bessie said:
You're right, The Orthodox Church is not the gospel, but it does have a lot of validity and relevant commentary. I'm not sure we need to jump all over an inquirer for posting a quote from it. Discuss the problems with it by all means, but I don't think he was out of line. laconicstudent was not the first one on this thread to mention that it doesn't make you a heretic to believe in it.

Thank you. I confess to being rather startled by the immediate response. I just thought that since the book I was reading briefly addressed the topic, I would simply share what it said.

If someone could point out.....

laconicstudent said:
If I can just butt in here.

I was reading The Orthodox Church, Met. Kallistos writes that the Orthodox regard the dogmatism of IC as dangerously unnecessary, because it could lead to a confusion of doctrine about sin, because it separates Mary from the rest of God's created creatures.

He concludes

" From the Orthodox point of view, however, the whole question belongs to the realm of theological opinion; if an individual Orthodox today felt impelled to believe in the Immaculate Conception, he or she could not be termed a heretic for doing so."

Just thought I'd share that, for what its worth.

If I at some point claimed that The Orthodox Church is Gospel, or have even remotely come close to claiming complete knowledge of the Orthodox Church by reading the book, please point out where and how, as I am completely confused and somewhat hurt by the implication.

Macarius · Apr 16, 2010

Michael the Iconographer said:
I would rather just see this thread die. I am so tired of the "us vs. them" threads, comparing us with the RC's. Let us talk about Orthodox Christianity without having to drag Rome into the conversation.

There has been an odd number of them recently... not sure why.

But if they bother you, just don't participate in them. I may be odd on this, but I welcome them (and welcome the further questions offered by the RCC posters) because they offer us an opportunity to expound the heart of the Orthodox faith, rather than turning to less healthy topics (like inter-church Orthodox politics).

But that's me...

In Christ,
Macarius

Mary of Bethany · Apr 16, 2010

Macarius said:
There has been an odd number of them recently... not sure why.

But if they bother you, just don't participate in them. I may be odd on this, but I welcome them (and welcome the further questions offered by the RCC posters) because they offer us an opportunity to expound the heart of the Orthodox faith, rather than turning to less healthy topics (like inter-church Orthodox politics).

But that's me...

In Christ,
Macarius

Ditto!

Mary

Michael G · Apr 16, 2010

Macarius said:
There has been an odd number of them recently... not sure why.

But if they bother you, just don't participate in them. I may be odd on this, but I welcome them (and welcome the further questions offered by the RCC posters) because they offer us an opportunity to expound the heart of the Orthodox faith, rather than turning to less healthy topics (like inter-church Orthodox politics).

But that's me...

In Christ,
Macarius

Being a former Roman Catholic I do not care to be reminded of what they believe.

Macarius · Apr 16, 2010

Michael the Iconographer said:
Being a former Roman Catholic I do not care to be reminded of what they believe.

Certainly you recognize, though, that your own knowledge of Catholicism isn't perfect. I mean, you and I both have a strong grasp on Catholic theology, but don't the members of a community have the right to say for themselves what it is that they believe?

Anyhow, that's why I specified questions in my comment above (not "clarifications" since the line between clarification and argument is too thin, as we've seen).

Orthodox Perspective on the Immaculate conception of Mary!

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