Orthodox MJs

[Toney]

B"H,

I should like to revisit an analogy Justin and I briefly discussed around the time I was joining MJ. It sufficiently illustrates a point.

Imagine a rope bridge swinging over an abyss. On one side, the bridge is anchored by Christianity, as represented by the Catholic Church. On the other side, the anchor is Judaism, as represented by Hasidism. Messianic Judaism is the center of that bridge and is a unique Jewish remnant – Jews who accept Yeshua. This bridge is orthodoxy, the abyss is heterodoxy.

Justin pointed out to me, correctly I believe, that this bridge must be built from the Jewish side.

I see a lot of Christian construction effort. Evangelical Christians – Protestants – who consider themselves Messianic Jews are like Sir Alec Guinness’ character in Bridge on the River Kwai. They may solve a small problem but create a larger problem in doing so. While they may bring a Jew or two to Yeshua, their tactics disparage Judaism, send the wrong spiritual message to Messianics and confuse the MJ movement, which by definition must be Jewish.

Christians may not pre-graft themselves onto the tree without an understanding of Torah. There are no shortcuts. There is no such thing as a Christ-centered Messianic just as there is no such thing as a Torah-centered Christian. From the center of the bridge, all is Echad.

Balance is a challenge in the center of the bridge. Personally, I think to accomplish such balance is the zenith of spiritual growth – your HaShem legs. This is why I rail against distractions and agendas, threads that prevent us from taking the next careful step toward the center of this bridge together.

There is great spiritual hunger on CF. We should see ourselves as chefs, as servants. If you agree, how do we do that?

Shalom

 

[muffler dragon]

One question, one response:

Response: in finding balance or finding a way to serve, the best move for myself is to find primary causes/concerns. Things that are of the bare-est (spelling?) essentials. That is my means for starting anything.

Question: when you say Catholic, do you mean catholic = universal or Catholic as is the denomination? You needn't read too far between the lines to understand why I ask.

I like the direction of this post and I pray that it is something we keep in mind for the future.

Shalom.

 

[Toney]

One question, one response:

Response: in finding balance or finding a way to serve, the best move for myself is to find primary causes/concerns. Things that are of the bare-est (spelling?) essentials. That is my means for starting anything.

Question: when you say Catholic, do you mean catholic = universal or Catholic as is the denomination? You needn't read too far between the lines to understand why I ask.

I like the direction of this post and I pray that it is something we keep in mind for the future.

Shalom.

Thank you, Nathan.

I put the post up as food for thought with the hope that members of the forum would instruct me. Recently, a member posted that he/she did not "like the direction" the Messianic Movement was taking. Frankly, I am still trying to understand "the movement."

To stay with the bridge analogy, what does one take along and what does one leave behind? From the Jewish side, I feel it is important to bring all 613 with you -- the complete portion of Torah. Rabbinic teaching and Talmudic thought are perhaps bare essentials, perhaps not. Surely, you must leave something behind or there is no reason to get on the bridge (from either direction) in the first place.

From the Christian side, I believe it is just as important to accept the full portion. This is what I mean by orthodoxy. Anything less, and you could have people rolling on the floors of airports espousing all sorts of nonsensical gibberish. Not that there is anything wrong with true "worship in the Spirit." But is it a "bare essential" for Messianics?

If the Messianic Movement is Jewish, as the name implies, it is not Protestant.

Jews do not need to be saved by Evangelicals or by anyone else. Personally, I find the notion offensive and I am not Jewish.

If the movement is of G-d, in other words if it is Divinely inspired rather than simply blessed as another denomination, it will be a movement of affirmation, not negation. It will be defined by what it is, not by what it is not.

 

[sojeru]

I can slightly agree with the initial post
yet, disagree aswell
but that is just me

shalom u'brachot

 

[P_G]

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[Toney]

Well, I was not trying to be offensive at all only to raise a legitimate issue or two for discussion, not unpleasant debate. Please direct my attention to the comments in my OP you find offensive and I shall edit them.

Having read your strongly worded response several times, I am uncertain as to which button I pushed that has got you so exercised.

I wrote that pre-grafting requires understanding of Torah (from a Jewish perspective). I do not believe you would disagree.

With due respect, Pastor George, I have a difficult time with negative emotional outbursts (this board has been full of them lately) when trying to peacefully discuss spirituality amongst brothers and sisters.

Shalom

 

[Toney]

"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified." (Gal 2:15ff)

I believe Paul's "we" refers to Barnabus, Titus and others who, as he writes, "are Jews by birth, and not Gentile sinners," and have been sent by G-d to the Gentiles. I do not read here, although others may disagree, that faith in Christ is necessary for salvation for Jews who remain Jews.

Faith and works (brotherly love) are the essence of the Law.

If I read Romans correctly, grafting is something G-d will accomplish at the appointed time. IMO, the Christian community is not presently grafted, but one day will be. Christians who are called by the Spirit to pre-graft themselves have a responsibility not to offend Jews, also something I glean from Romans.

Please correct me (nicely) if I am wrong.

 

[Hix]

Dont overreact PG, I dont think Toney ment to be offensive in the slightest. I think you are misunderstanding the "law" in its fullness. Calling it the "law" has such a legalistic and negative connotation to it, when really the Torah is not something that should be looked apon as in aposition to faith in G-d. Infact the two go hand in hand, they are of equal importance, one cannot and should not be weighed against the other.

If I were to make the statement "The Torah is the most important part of the Bible" then no doubt I would get negative remarks about being overly legalistic, but consider that the Torah says "Thou shalt love the L-rd thy G-d with all thy heart, and all thy soul and all thy strength". That is faith, yet it is also a commandment, a mitzvot. What then did Yeshua mean when he was asked "how do you be born again" and he responds "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not know these things?", being born again was never something that didnt exist before Yeshua came, being born again was something that was always in place by G-ds mercy. Its name was Torah.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[simchat_torah]

Toney,

I, for one, appreciate your views... they are often refreshing.

I was simply going to remain silent in this thread, but I think I might mention one quick thought.

Did HaShem ever intend a bridge?
And going back a step further, Did HaShem ever intend the island now labelled "christianity"?

In other words, I believe the answer to the second question is no, which makes the bridge a moot point.

I don't believe that HaShem ever desired a "seperate" religion... ever.
my 2 cents.

 

[sojeru]

my view exactly simchat

 

[Toney]

Toney,

I, for one, appreciate your views... they are often refreshing.

I was simply going to remain silent in this thread, but I think I might mention one quick thought.

Did HaShem ever intend a bridge?
And going back a step further, Did HaShem ever intend the island now labelled "christianity"?

In other words, I believe the answer to the second question is no, which makes the bridge a moot point.

I don't believe that HaShem ever desired a "seperate" religion... ever.
my 2 cents.

Well, achi, 2,000 years after the fact your point may also be moot.

Actually, I do not believe Yeshua intended to start a new religion but that HaShem did. The symbolism I see in HaShem's preference for the younger son throughout scripture, and a thought affirmed by Paul in Romans 8:28, is that Plan B always was anticipated by HaShem and He works just fine with it.

The Jews have a unique role, as you yourself often have stated, and so do Christians IMO.

I will say if I believed as you do, I probably would not be a Messianic. Rather, I would lay down in the path of shlichim until they accepted me into Chabad. But that is this week, I am Scottish, and the point is moot.

 

[Talmidah]

Did HaShem ever intend a bridge?
And going back a step further, Did HaShem ever intend the island now labelled "christianity"?

In other words, I believe the answer to the second question is no, which makes the bridge a moot point.

I don't believe that HaShem ever desired a "seperate" religion... ever.
my 2 cents.

I have to say that I totally agree with Yafet.

 

[Toney]

[/color]
I have to say that I totally agree with Yafet.

As a footnote, Yafet & Elena, the bridge, the analogy, the pre-grafting – all is moot unless both Judaism and Christianity are affirmed, warts and all. Otherwise, you both are quite correct: there is no need for the bridge, no in-betweens. In that case you say, “I want Moshiach now,” and I say, “Maranatha, come Lord Jesus.”

For my part, I have no problem saying both. Is that wrong?

 

[P_G]

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[Toney]

What I see here is what could best be refered to as "severe anti-replacement" theology.

Basically it says that a Jew is saved by heritage regardless of his faith in Messiah Y'shua. That salvation is his birthright or perhaps by his good works. That a Gentile is the one who needs the atoning sacrifice of Christ for salvation but for the Jew it is sewn up already.

Then go further you say that a gentile cannot pre-graft himself into the line of the hebrew with out a first knowledge of Torah, and one would assume adherence to it.

I believe that you believe I have ulterior motives for these posts/questions/thoughts and I do not.

I do not know what "severe anti-replacement theology" is. I never wrote that a Jew is saved by heritage alone. I cannot separate faith in G-d into one valid category and one invalid category. Torah teaches faith in HaShem, what is the problem?

I do not believe that non-Jews should be fully Torah observant. A righteous Gentile, using Chabad's definition, subscribes to Noahide Law and benefits from knowledge of the 613 and attendant fence-laws.

 

[Hix]

Deuteronomy 4:27-31 – (27) And the L-rd will scatter you among the peoples, and you will remain few in number among the nations where the L-rd will lead you. (28) And there you will serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which do not see, and do not hear, and do not eat, and do not smell. (29) And if, from there, you will seek the L-rd your G-d, then you will find Him, if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. (30) When you are in distress, and these words will find their way to you; in the end of days, you will return to the L-rd your G-d, and you will obey him; (31) For the L-rd your G-d is a merciful G-d, He will not forsake you and will not destroy you; and He will not forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them.

1 Kings 8:46-52 – (46) If they sin against You, for there is no man who does not sin, and You will be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, and their captors will carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near; (47) And if they take it to heart in the land where they were held captive, and repent, and make supplication to You in the land of their captors, saying, "We have sinned, and have done perversely, we have committed wickedness"; (48) And they return to You with all their heart, and with all their soul, in the land of their enemies who led them away captive, and pray to You toward their land, which You gave to their fathers, [toward] the city which you have chosen, and [toward] the house which I have built for Your Name; (49) Then You shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause, (50) And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and have mercy upon them before their captors, so that they may have mercy on them; (51) For they are Your people, and Your inheritance, whom You have brought out of Egypt, from inside the smelting furnace of iron; (52) That Your eyes may be open to the supplication of Your servant, and to the supplication of Your people Israel, to hear them whenever they call to You.

Hosea 14:2-3 – (2) Return, O Israel, to the L-rd your G-d; for you have stumbled in your iniquity. (3) Take words with you and return to the L-rd; say to Him: "You shall forgive all iniquity, and accept the good, and we will render [for] bullocks [the offering of our] lips."

Micah 6:6-8 – (6) With what shall I come before the L-rd, bow myself before G-d on high? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? (7) Will the L-rd be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? (8) Man has told you what is good; but what does the L-rd demand of you? To do justice, and to love loving-kindness, and to walk humbly with your G-d?

Proverbs 16:6 – Through loving kindness and truth will iniquity be atoned; and through the fear of the L-rd [you] depart from evil.

Daniel 4:24 [27 in Christian Bibles] - Only, O king, let my counsel be acceptable to you, and your sins will be with charity removed, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor; indeed, your tranquility will be prolonged.

Jeremiah 7:21-23 – (21) Thus says the L-rd of Hosts, the G-d of Israel: "Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat meat. (22) For I did not speak to your fathers, and I did not command them on the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning a burnt offerings and sacrifice; (23) But this thing I commanded them, saying, 'Obey Me, and I will be your G-d and you shall be a people to Me; and you shall walk in all the ways that I will command you, so that it may be well with you.'"

Hosea 6:6 – For loving-kindness is what I desire, and not sacrifice; and knowledge of G-d more than burnt offerings.

Isaiah 1:11-18 – (11) "Of what use to Me are your many sacrifices?" says the L-rd; "I am sated from the burnt offerings of rams and the fat of well-fed cattle; and in the blood of bulls, and of sheep, and of male goats I do not delight. (12) When you come to appear before Me, who has requested this of you, to trample My courts? (13) You shall no longer bring a vain meal offering; it is incense of abomination to Me; as for the calling of an assembly on a New Moon and Sabbath, I cannot [bear] iniquity along with a solemn occasion. (14) Your New Moons and your appointed Feasts My soul hates, they are a burden to Me; I am weary of bearing them. (15) And when you spread out your hands, I will hide My eyes from you, and even when you pray much, I do not hear; your hands are full of blood. (16) Wash, cleanse yourselves, remove the evil of your doings from before My eyes; cease to do evil; (17) Learn to do good, seek justice, help the oppressed; do justice to the orphan, plead [the case] for the widow. (18) Come now, and let us reason together," said the L-rd; "If your sins be as scarlet, they shall become as white as snow; if they be red as crimson, they shall become as wool."

I see no mention of having to believe in a Messiah for salvation

 

[Toney]

I see no mention of having to believe in a Messiah for salvation.

Nor do I, Hix.

In my OP, I asked how we can help others who come here to MJ in search of truth. I just lifted this example from a new OP on MJ today:

"You guys are so scary to me. i hang out here alot just to read what is going on. the reason you scare me is that i usually agree and feel more at home here than in the Christian forum side. I am confused right now."

Perhaps this thread contributes to her confusion, perhaps it enlightens by teaching that while MJs disagree on many issues, there is more that unites us. I hope it is the latter. Souls don't come here to see blown up bridges like in the movies.

Shalom

 

[P_G]

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[Hix]

I can sence the "pascals wager" aproach, but I have faith in what G-d has proclaimed. Why do things have to change when we get to that middle dividing page in the Bible? Why cant things be eternal just like G-d says they are?

If Yeshua changed the verses that I showed then he is a false Messiah....so there HAS to be a different aproach.
Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[P_G]

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