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Origins and End Times beliefs -- connected?

Which of these options most closely fits you? (See opening post for belief sets)

  • YEC: My views most closely align with belief set A (milennial)

  • YEC: My views most closely align with belief set B (amilennial)

  • YEC: My views are in between, or a mixture of A and B

  • Non-YEC: My views most closely align with belief set A (milennial)

  • Non-YEC: My views most closely align with belief set B (amilennial)

  • Non-YEC: My views are in between, or a mixture of A and B


Results are only viewable after voting.
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Smidlee

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I never claim it was ideal (as noted about resources) but only possible in numbers as you have shown yourself.

Evolutionists believe in huge claims is possible like "the little eyeball that could" story without real numbers or hard evidence to back it up.
 
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mark kennedy

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In other words, does literalism apply at both ends of the Bible?


Belief set A
- Many events of the 20th and 21st centuries suggest that we are now living in the unique period of the end times


We have been living in the end times for 2,000 years, the cross was an end time event.

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" (1Pe 1:20, 21)

There is a sense in which the final 7 years is some time in the future begining with the covenant of death and culminating with the return "Parusia" (appearing, presence, arrival) of Christ.


- Israel will play a special part in world events at the end of time

Correct, Israel makes the covenant of death beginning the time of Jacobs trouble. In Scripture this has an historical precedence in Israel forming an unholy aliance with Eqypt to protect them from Assyria. I was also tribute paid to Babylon that angered the Lord and provoked his judgment on Judea:



- I believe that there will be a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth

That's right a literal 1,000 years.

- I believe that Christians will be removed from earth prior to the great tribulation

Actually, I believe in a mid-trib rapture but it will be a literal, physical transformation.


- A literal antichrist will arise and lead the entire world astray near the end of time

Yes, this is the white horse rider with a crown and a bow who first appears at the opening of the first seal. This maniac is finally cast bodily along with the false prophet into the lake of fire. It is important to realize that there are two beasts (one of the land and one of the sea). The beast from the sea is often refered to as the 'antichrist' but I am inclined to think this is a general referance to the false prophet. He is called, 'the lamb that speaks like a dragon'.

There is more speculation about the actual identity of these two figures then you can shake a stick at. They will have a very brief carrier with the dubious distinction of being the first two cast bodily into the lake of fire.

- Current events in the middle east are very significant for biblical history

That's right, Israel being back in the land is a critical peice of the End time scenerio. Israel preserved their culture, bloodline and religion for 2,000 years and finally returned to their ancient homeland. There has never been another nation like this, it is one of the most important fulfillments of prophecy in the modern world.

- Revelation is a book that speaks of mainly literal events that are yet to happen (or are currently happening)

It is the literal, futuristic predictive prophecy marking the complete fullfillment of the Gospel. It is the last of the 70 7s in Daniel and I hold to a dispensationalist interprutation Hal Lindsay called God's prophetic stop watch. At the end of the 69th week Christ was 'cut off' which means the Messiah was killed. When He was rejected by Israel God's prophetic clock stopped. It starts again at the end of the church age and the last 7 years begin.

Now, I think it is important to tell you that I am not a died in the wool dispensationalist. Theology is not all that important to me with regards to end-times scenerios. There is a strong tie in my mind between a literal Revelations and a literal Genesis. The historicity of Scripture from the beginning to the end is deeply inbedded in my view of the Gospel.
 
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random_guy

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Except scientists have many different examples of eye evolution by comparing extant creatures and also use the fossil record to back their claims. They also publish their work and evidence in peer reviewed papers. So, no evolutionists don't make up claims like you just did, they use the scientific method to support their claims.
 
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Smidlee

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Yeah ,right.
Replace " the science method" with " their imagination".
 
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Assyrian

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Agreed due to how Revelation is divide : Rev. 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen (chapter 1),
OK

and the things which are (church age chapter 3 & 4) ,
Umm, no. When John wrote, "the things which are" were the seven churches which were in existence in Asia Minor. Interpreting the seven churches as seven eras of the church age puts the chapters among the "things which shall be hereafter" not "the things which are".

and things which shall be hereafter (after the church age chaper 4 and on).
As Young's literal Version puts it: "the things that are about to come after these things" 'These things' are God's dealing with the seven churches John wrote to. The events from chapter 4 on are what was about to happen after that.


The reason people think the church has disappeared in the main body of Rev, is because it is referred to in symbolic language, 'lampstands' or in phrases like 'the saints', 'the martyrs of Jesus', or those who 'hold to the testimony of Jesus'.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Yeah ,right.
Replace " the science method" with " their imagination".


i'm curious.

after reading threads in scientific sections of this board and in theological sections, which group do you think exercises the most imagination-scientific type when looking at the world or theological types when discussing the Bible?

which group eventually looks at things the same way-people looking at the world or people looking at the Bible? one group appears to suppress imagination and agree to what is there and the other group appears to continue to imagine what they see there and split into smaller groups each with a specific vision.

guess which is which?


looking at the physical world with physical eyes appears to have a restraint of the imagination that looking at the Bible with spiritual eyes does not.
 
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Smidlee

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Umm, no. When John wrote, "the things which are" were the seven churches which were in existence in Asia Minor.
bingo
Interpreting the seven churches as seven eras of the church age puts the chapters among the "things which shall be hereafter" not "the things which are".
Yet Rev. doesn't actually state there are seven eras yet chapters 3 and 4 dealt with the seven churches (Gentiles churches at that) which most chruches will fall under.

The events from chapter 4 on are what was about to happen after that.

Which so happens not to mention the church (which were gentiles churches was address in chap. 3 and 4) but once again turn to the nation Isreal and the Jewish people.
 
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Mallon

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looking at the physical world with physical eyes appears to have a restraint of the imagination that looking at the Bible with spiritual eyes does not.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to rmwilliamsll again.​
I anxiously await an answer to this post. rmwilliamsll hit the nail on the head.
 
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Smidlee

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i'


looking at the physical world with physical eyes appears to have a restraint of the imagination that looking at the Bible with spiritual eyes does not.
Yet it's the evolutionist who came up the with " The little eyeball that could" story.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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Yet it's the evolutionist who came up the with " The little eyeball that could" story.

the extraordinary uniformity of the scientific community across cultures, languages, religions etc can be contrasted with the extraordinary division in the church in spite of clear Biblical commands to be one body, in spite of very uniform culture, language, socio-economic class, race etc etc. the church divides over very similiar ideas.

there is essential 1 science in the world and several thousand churches. this alone is evidence of extraordinary restraint of imagination in science and individual assent to the principles of the whole group, religion is almost the opposite with the level of agreement down to a handful of people.

using this example.

how many different ways does science propose the formation of the human eye?

how many ways does Christianity propose the origin of Adam and his eyeball?

which group exercises the most imagination is forming a "just so story", which group has reference to a common body of external information that overrides each individual's imagination? which group has no external constraints of the human imagination and therefore has not intersubjectivity to share a common vision?
 
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Smidlee

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which could mean scientists are too dogmatic with their imagination.

how many different ways does science propose the formation of the human eye?
science propose none. science is extremely overrated when it comes to origins. Scientists are trying to use science to prove something that's very likely to be way beyond science.
 
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Assyrian

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Yet Rev. doesn't actually state there are seven eras yet chapters 3 and 4 dealt with the seven churches (Gentiles churches at that) which most chruches will fall under.

Just as individual Christian find they are Marys or Marthas Peters or Thomases, but the account of the gospels are about believers in the 1st century AD no matter how well we can apply them. in the same way, the letters in Revelation are addressed to 1st century churches in Asia Minor dealing with evens and people in those churches at that time. The rest of Revelation is what happens after that. Or at least that is what the book says.

Which so happens not to mention the church (which were gentiles churches was address in chap. 3 and 4) but once again turn to the nation Isreal and the Jewish people.
and a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages Rev 7:9
 
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rmwilliamsll

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the extraordinary uniformity of the scientific community across cultures, languages, religions etc can be contrasted with the extraordinary division in the church in spite of clear Biblical commands to be one body, in spite of very uniform culture, language, socio-economic class, race etc etc. the church divides over very similiar ideas.


which could mean scientists are too dogmatic with their imagination.



curious response. science shows lots of imagination on the leading edge of the unknown, but as ideas are compared and contrasted, evidence weighed and balanced, over time a consensus emerges that really is extraordinary in it's unity.

nothing like modern science is evident in history for it's broad scale agreement and intersubjectivity. to minimize this or to minimize the church's equally extrarordinary division is to miss the major point that science has found a domain and a method that really yields consensus. the church ought to sit up and take notice and ask serious questions about why and how this differs from the church's epistemology.

it is curious that you would label scientific consensus --- dogma which is a word currently most commonly used to describe the church's doctrine.

from: http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/DIO_DRO/DOGMA_Gr_Sbypa_from_b6aeiv_to_s.html

and it's use here is a backhanded way to declare that science is like religion or is religious in nature.

if science was religion it would break up into little tiny pieces like religion does. it has not, but rather expresses a unity that shames the modern church.
 
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Smidlee

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The Apostles wasn't told how long the church age was so of course "thing that are" was written to the 1st century churches. Yet the doesn't leave out these chapters was dealing with the church as a whole especially since seven represent the number of completeness.

and a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages Rev 7:9
and I'll continue the verse ".....stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands." Of course there will be gentiles saved in the trib (by the 144,000 Jewish preachers) but it still doesn't mention the church. The are hints of the apostate church being around during the trib.
 
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Smidlee

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it is curious that you would label scientific consensus --- dogma which is a word currently most commonly used to describe the church's doctrine.
I agree with what Michael Crichton stated :
" There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period." He then gives how bad of a track record consensus has.
So yes scientific consensus it nothing more than dogma.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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the church age
saved in the trib


i am amazed at how easily people use club talk, a private language thinking in obvious that their audience understands it the same way they do, when in fact, statistically less than 1/3 of the modern American church* is dispensationalist, that the roots of the movement are not yet 200 years old.

these words are as much nonsense as:
Twas brillig, and the slithy toves


are you even aware of how divisive dispensational type of theological analysis is?

assuming the correctness of this type of language shows how insular and divided the church really is.

i can use very specific terms from science anywhere in the world and those words are common to millions of people.

i remember the title of one of the first theology books i ever read:
baptism the waters that divide. and often think how that could just as well be:
baptism the words that divide
or
"here is my body" the words that divide.


i am aware that i share a common theological vocabulary with a very small part of the greater visible church and at the same time share a technical scientific vocabulary with people from every country on earth.

sad condition when the church needs to take lessons on unity from the world, rather than teaching it.


notes:
*i do not know the statistic for the whole world, but only for the America church, i'd be curious if anyone knows or can find it for the 1.2 billion christians (how many are premillennialists or how many are dispensationalists)
 
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rmwilliamsll

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I agree with what Michael Crichton stated :
" There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period." He then gives how bad of a track record consensus has.
So yes scientific consensus it nothing more than dogma.



nonsense.

compare two major ideas from each system.

science: F=ma
Christian theology: this is my body.


you tell me where the consensus lies and how many different ways the science can be interpreted and how many ways the theology is.

furthermore.

compare what happens
when things change, when ideas change.

you show me how the church reacts by building a new consensus with reference to a common reality and an agreed upon method for understanding how to produce evidence and reaching a common unity versus how science shatters into little tiny competing groups all certain that they are correct.

and even more importantly:

you show me how F=ma is taught differently all around the world, in each political domain and in each language group and how "this is my body" is taught the same everywhere in the Christian church of the same city.

then i will apologize for the "nonsense" remark.
and switch to describing scientific theory as dogma and personal taste and Christian theology as justified true belief universal to all people.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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thank you for the quote

from:
http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote04.html


if you read the whole speech it is a extended argue against the politicization of science and the attitude that accompanys the policy making wing using the word consensus. it does not support your point of using the quotation at all but is close to being the opposite.

he has great respect for the unity of science in the absence of a forced consensus based on political or policy goals.

it is a worthwhile read, thank you for pointing it out*...



*i went to give you rep points for it, but you turned off the reputation function....
o'well consider this a big thank you then....*grin*
 
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