Original Sin

[Arnold_Philips]

I was watching something on PBS about Christian-Jewish relations. It touched on topics like Jewish ghettos, Nazis, Vatican II, and so on. One interesting thing that it mentioned was the innate doctrinal differences on salvation.

It said that Christianity wove original sin into its theology, when in fact, Jews had no concept of this. As support, it showed infant baptism and certain hymns that hint at a fallen state of man.

Thoughts?

 

[Svt4Him]

I'm Christian, and I have no original sin in my theology.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Most Western Christians euther believe in original sin in some form or have had to consider this theory in developing a theology without it. I, personally, do not believe in original sin except in the sense the phrase is used by most Eastern Christians - mortality - every human being born in such a condition that death is inevitable.

However, since the Western church (Roman Catholic and protestant) has, for well over 1000 years thought of the judicial metaphor as the "real meaning" of salvation, it takes some effort for Western Christians to read scripture so as to see that there are other, equally valid and equally important metaphors for salvation, such as reconciliation and healing. The Western idea of original sin, I think, developed as a result of an out-of-balance over-emphasis on the judicial metaphor at the expense of all the others.

The documentary was correct that the Western Christian concept of original sin is not found in Judaism. It is also not found - or at least not found with great emphasis - in Eastern Christianity.

 

[Joshua Howard]

None are perfect, No not one... The true Christian believes that the Bible is the inspired word of God, in the entirety. To declare that humanity does not have a sinful nature, does not sin, or is not born sinful denies the very theme upon which salvation is laid. What need have we for a physician if we are all well?

 

[jbarcher]

Did Paul not write about original sin in Romans 5? V.12-14 specifically.

I lean towards Calvin's "low" view of man...

Edit: I missed the part 'all have sinned'. Going to do a little reading.

 

[Svt4Him]

We all sin, I agree. We are not all born in sin. If this was so, then to conceive a baby is sin. Sin entered the world, not the humans. Because we have a disposition towards sin, we all will sin, once we understand and violate our conscience. A baby is sin free, or else they would not inherit the kingdom of God. Original sin is not a biblical doctrine. All have sinned, yes, but that gets into the age of accountability.

Romans 5



12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—13(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

18Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

20Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Now how can they surpress truth if they never knew it? Unless one is born in truth.

Matthew 18

1At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3and said, "Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me.

6"Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

10"Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

 

[d0c markus]

argument against original sin:

“. . . the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father . . .” (Ezek. 18:20)

sin starts in our youth:

Gen 8:21 "the lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the lord said to himself "i will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of a mans heart is evil from his youth..." nasb

isaiah 7:15,16

"he will eat curds and honey at the time he knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. for before the boy know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land, the land whose two kings you dread will be foresaken."

Best commentary puts this kid at ages 12-14 before he knows the difference between good and evil, they are not born in iniquity.

eccleisates and hebrews indicate that the spirit is given to us by god, since nothing evil can come from God, its not illogical to say that these newborn souls are not corrupted.

ECC 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,

and the spirit returns to God who gave it. NIV

heb 12:9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live NIV

as for this verse widley used in support of original sin

Psalm 51: 3-5
3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.
5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

An Explanation:

You can't make a dogma out of one unclear verse. The verse of David is also translated "In sin my mother conceived me" and I submit that David's mother was in sin. Does that mean all who conceive are in sin? No, it is a gift from God. So why was David's mother different? I believe his mother had an affair. I won't die for this belief, but I tend to think it because a. This verse said in sin him mother conceived him b. he was the only son Jesse didn't bring to show the prophet c. usually when a son is ostracized, it's because of shame. The verse in Romans specifically says sin entered the world, not the human race. Granted all will sin, but we aren't born with it, more of a tendancy to be drawn towards it.

As i search the net this seems to be the general consensus as to the explanation of it. There are verses i guess in samuel that indicate this as well, and also if you study david's ranting repenting psalms it also indicates that he often employs some dramatic language.

Its up to you what you believe, the verses for you not being sinful until you can know better out weigh this one verse and if you view original sin as valid these verses contradict each other.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1348979&postcount=1 Check out this short thread.

 

[Benedicta00]

The Jews didn't have a theory on original sin. Jesus came and diagnosed the problem with human nature and cured it.

 

[FOMWatts<><]

A few verses to consider and a few of my own thoughts as well...

Job 25:4 How then can a man be righteous before God?
How can one born of woman be pure?
5 If even the moon is not bright
and the stars are not pure in his eyes,
6 how much less man, who is but a maggot-
a son of man, who is only a worm!"

Psalms 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Romans 5:12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin is our flesh nature which we are born into. In Romans 11:32 it reads that God bound all men over to iniquity, so that He may have mercy on them all. He creates us as fleshly man that is BOUND to stumble, because He wants to express His mercy in our time of sin. Just some verses to ponder...

FOMWatts<><

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

What I have come to think, after studying a while on this subject, is that we are not all guilty of original sin. The list of our transgressions does not have You ate the apple as item #1, however we do all live with the taint of original sin. This is evident in all aspects fo life. The curse of sin is death but there is a taint that goes beyond that. Prior to sin Adam and Eve were perfect, a perfect being would know from birth that God is the center of the universe. I have 20 month old, and watching him you can see this taint even in him. He is the center of the universe as far as he is concerned, nothing else matters save what he wants. My 4 and 5 year old are similar but have begun to understand that God is in all things and that we should try to do things that are pleasing to him. They frequently ask me if God like certain things. The self centered world is due to original sin and we all suffer that affliction. Are we guilty of the actual sin itself, not from what I have read and understand. Do we live with the reprecussions of that sin even today, yes we do.

 

[Svt4Him]

A lion is the center of his universe. Is this a sin?

Don't get me wrong, I know it will become one as we get older, but is it different for a child? God will judge the lion?

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

"Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned." Saint Paul in a letter to the Romans 12:4

Paul reflects on the sin of Adam (Genesis 3:1-13) in the light of the redemptive mystery of Christ. Sin, as used in the singular by Paul, refers to the dreadful power that has gripped humanity, which is now in revolt against the Creator and engaged in the exaltation of its own desires and interests.

But no one has a right to say, "Adam made me do it," for all are culpable (Romans 5:12): Gentiles under the demands of the law written in their hearts (Romans 2:14-15), and Jews under the Mosaic covenant. Through the Old Testament law, the sinfulness of humanity that was operative from the beginning (Romans 5:13) found further stimulation, with the result that sins were generated in even greater abundance. According to Romans 5:15-21, God's act in Christ is in total contrast to the disastrous effects of the virus of sin that invaded humanity through Adam's crime.

 

[d0c markus]

"Therefore, just as through one person sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all, inasmuch as all sinned." Saint Paul in a letter to the Romans 12:4

Paul reflects on the sin of Adam (Genesis 3:1-13) in the light of the redemptive mystery of Christ. Sin, as used in the singular by Paul, refers to the dreadful power that has gripped humanity, which is now in revolt against the Creator and engaged in the exaltation of its own desires and interests.

But no one has a right to say, "Adam made me do it," for all are culpable (Romans 5:12): Gentiles under the demands of the law written in their hearts (Romans 2:14-15), and Jews under the Mosaic covenant. Through the Old Testament law, the sinfulness of humanity that was operative from the beginning (Romans 5:13) found further stimulation, with the result that sins were generated in even greater abundance. According to Romans 5:15-21, God's act in Christ is in total contrast to the disastrous effects of the virus of sin that invaded humanity through Adam's crime.

I would agree with the verse you quote but not to the context in which you apply it. You see, through one man, sin indeed entered the world, but we are not born with it which is something the verse does not say. WE however understand through other verses that you become 'culpable' at youth which is defined as:

youth ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (y

th)
n. pl. youths (y

ths, y

thz)

1. 1. <LI type=a>The condition or quality of being young.
   2. An early period of development or existence: a nation in its youth.
2. The time of life between childhood and maturity.
3. 1. <LI type=a>A young person, especially a young male in late adolescence.
   2. (used with a sing. or pl. verb) Young people considered as a group.
4. Geology. The first stage in the erosion cycle.
   
   Right when kids are old enough to understand whats happening. Mind you it may happen at various times, and in the case of mentally handicapped it may never happen.

 

[WanderingMagi]

What I have come to think, after studying a while on this subject, is that we are not all guilty of original sin. The list of our transgressions does not have You ate the apple as item #1,

Yes but you would have. It is this state of sinfulness that is wrong.