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Kol

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I'm new to this site and I hope I'm posting on the right board.

My question is about Adam's original sin. The thought ends up being about bodily resurrection, but starts really with Adam. What I'd like to ask is, was Adam changed by his sin, and was this change passed on to his children?
 
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was Adam changed by his sin

By Adam's sin, death entered into the world and condemned all men to suffer it- both physically and spiritually.

was this change passed on to his children?

And of course, we all die. You're quite right that it doesn't end with heaven- it ends with bodily resurrection. The great parallel isn't hell and heaven. It's physical and spiritual death, and physical and spiritual resurrection. Adam brought the sickness unto death; Christ brought the healing unto life- physical and spiritual.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The sin of Adam and Eve was planned and orchestrated by God. Man was made of corruptable flesh but needed a nature suited for that flesh. They received that nature when they ate of the fruit. Now they were complete. Mankind was now prepared, body and soul, to act out on the renewed earth the ancient rebellion, and it's consequences, of Lucifer and the angels. All according to God's purpose.
 
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Benedicta00

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Yes. but God didn't purposefully create them so they could fall.

He gave them the free will to chose sin if that is what they wanted to do and it was. So they ate the apple but our teeth ache from it. We have issues now.

God knew this of course, but allowed it anyway because he desires we come to him freely.

he desires His creation return his love of their own free will.

Love returned for love, not because you were made to. Because love ain't really love if it is not given and returned freely.
 
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Kol

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Okay, then follow me here...if Adam's nature was now changed=the fallen nature, then he was no longer a "son of God", right? So this must be why God calls the men in the Bible "son of man"-if Adam = man. Because they're no longer sons of God. They're something Adam put out. This even ties in to the Song of Moses when He says, "to their shame they are no longer my children."

This would also make sense for CS Lewis to call the children in Narnia "Son of Adam". But anyway...

So if Adam was corrupted, then all his children were corrupted. So our flesh is sinful at birth.

Some people believe in a bodily resurrection. But if the above is true, it's impossible; Jesus wasn't an acceptable sacrifice. Spiritually, he would have been, but being a son of adam (even, "the second adam"), he would have been just corrupted flesh-wise as the rest of us. Secondly, this would have to mean he died spiritually(only his spirit would have been an unblemished sacrifice), which my pastor says isn't true but which this seems to imply. Otherwise, the spirit would have to be able to atone for the flesh, and vice versa.

...
 
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Iollain

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The Bible says their eyes were open and they knew good and evil, it was not 'passed on', we were there in Adam, and we are Adam (human).

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created
 
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BigNorsk

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Now you have stumbled into the necessity for Jesus' virgin birth. Ever notice that Eve ate first, yet mankind died when Adam ate the fruit?

It does not appear that original sin is transmitted through the mother but comes from the father alone. If the mother transmits original sin, then mankind would have been lost when our mother, Eve, ate the fruit, at that moment, only Adam would not have been in a fallen state. And if we had fallen when Eve ate then Adam eating would have had no effect, but we are told we died through Adam, not Eve

That's how Jesus can be human, yet without sin. He had no earthly father through which to die with Adam.

Some people don't like that idea, it's not explicitely spelled out, at least not to my knowledge, but it is consistent with scripture and explains what we know.

Some people want to make having sex the transmission of orginal sin, based on the verse where we are told we are conceived in sin, but that doesn't agree with the marriage bed being undefiled.

Marv
 
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ScottBot

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Implying that God orchestrated Adam and Eve's sin makes God culpable in the commission of that sin. Since God cannot be guilty of sin, we cannot make this claim.
 
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Kol

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1. Iollain:

The Bible says their eyes were open and they knew good and evil, it was not 'passed on', we were there in Adam, and we are Adam (human).

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. I *think* you're saying that we do have the fallen nature at birth, because we are "human" and "human"=fallen nature. Is this right? I'm not sure I understand you. But this would, in a way, make sense; God said if they took from the Tree, they wouldn't survive the day. Since a day is 1000 years with the Lord, and no one ever lived 1000 years, and since *we* don't live quite that long, then...yeah, it makes sense that it is not inherited but already there. I hope this is what you're saying, because if so, I agree with you.

2. BigNorsk:

It does not appear that original sin is transmitted through the mother but comes from the father alone.

Maybe, but it sounds more to me like the sin is traced through the fater, just as geneology would be. But (for example, in a land dispute, where no male is alive to inherit), a female may still be held responsible. Otherwise, wouldn't clones be sinless? Weird thought, but if we could create a human being singly from a mother's zygote and her own DNA, by your theory the child, never sired, would be free from sin. We could create our own Savior.

In a way though, I can see a glimmer of truth there, because it does say that Adam conceived a son in *his own* image.


Okay. Now, to slightly changes the topic...

Some people want to make having sex the transmission of orginal sin, based on the verse where we are told we are conceived in sin, but that doesn't agree with the marriage bed being undefiled.

It says that when they partook of the fruit, their eyes were opened. I know that some people believe Adam's sin was sexual. I have something to say here. I will try to keep this as clean as I can.

I have been a Christian for about 4 years now. Before that, I was heavily emerged in the occult. One of the things I experienced then is a tangent to this topic.

It has to do with sex and "their eyes were opened."

I hope you haven't completely written me off as a nut *just* yet.

The first time I was with a girl (before I was a Christian, still into magic, etc), I sensed something exactly like that. The *moment* I entered her, I felt as if an eye on my forehead were closing, and that there was a film over my *real* eyes that was dissolving. It felt as if acid were burning the covering away. It completely freaked me out. This wasn't anything from another spirit/entity; this was something *I* was sensing.

As a pagan I was afraid this would affect me psychicly (if that's a word), but it didn't seem to. But years later when the Lord brought me back, I read that verse in Genesis and it hit me that I knew exactly what it was talking about.

I think the verse about having their eyes opened refers to seeing things in another perspective, a flat, dead, physical perspective. That's what it seems like to me. We now know what Adam saw, because we see it too.

I have never taken drugs, I smoked cigaretts for a little while but stopped. I worship God and *not* pleasure or evil spirits. I do read passages to my kid sisters and even my cousin, and I bought all three of them Bibles. I'm planning on going to a Christian college this August. So please don't think I'm evil or on something or whatever. This is about something that happened a long time ago, but I'd be interested in getting some feedback, if possible. I don't know what else to say.

::winces, waiting for reply::
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I have to agree with you somewhat. God covered their 'nakedness' with animal skins, clearly refering to their private parts. This alone implies sexual activity at least being involved with their sin.

I remember my first experience as well. I went from 'innocence' to 'carnal knowledge' by that first event. I felt not only liberated, but enlightened. I was a different person from that day on, and not a very good one, I must confess.
 
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Iollain

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yes that is what i'm saying, we are just plain Adam, and Adam is fallen.

But i don't think this was a sexual sin:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


........as God told them to multiply?




I would definitly say it was something spiritual you were experiencing there, but i'm not sure if it partained to sex that Adam experienced, though they did have a great need to cover themselves, so you may be right.
 
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KJVisTruth

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Kol, I agree with you somewhat on the "flat, dead, physical perspective." When Adam (and Eve) were created, they were not separated from God, it was a very spiritual relationship... until they took bites of the forbidden fruit and "awoke." They died spiritually, knowing good and evil; sin became part of them. And we all know God refuse to mingle with sin, so they were banished from the garden (separation from God).

Whats so interesting about that story to me, is that when Eve first took a bite, her eyes were not opened, not till Adam took a bite. Gen. 3:7 "And the eyes of them both were opened,...."
 
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KJVisTruth

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I think, more like, God cannot handle it (doesnt condone sin)... Satan was already in the world, he couldnt even touch Adam and Eve without the tree. God tried to protect them by saying that the tree is forbidden. God is good, Satan is evil. So, knowing evil and good was death.

Good question! I shall think about this some more.

ETA: God said man became AS one of them, knowing good and evil. (Gen. 3:22) From that verse, it seems God did not want Adam to take another bite, and live forever. Therefore He kicked him out of Eden (Gen 3:23).
 
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Iollain

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Good answer, something more to think about.
 
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ScottBot

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But God gave man free will, put the tree within his reach and said "Don't touch". Satan, whose sole purpose is to cause our downfall, tempted us with the one thing that all of us reach to, pride. That is why it is said that pride is the devil's favorite sin. He twisted God's intention and call for obedience into a demand for equality, which man can never obtain. When he realized it, it was too late. Do I think Adam died spiritually? I don't know what Adam's eternal fate is. But through him, sin and death entered into the world. He was given a choice of obedience to God, or personal ambition, Adam chose himself and in that choice received his penalty.
 
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Iollain

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Gen 3:1 ¶ Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?


Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:


Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Gen 3:9 ¶ And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?


Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.


Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?


Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.


Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.


Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.


Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;


Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;


Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.


Gen 3:20 ¶ And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.


Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.


Gen 3:22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.



......was the tree of life in the garden to begin with, so they were allowed to eat from it?
 
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KJVisTruth

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Ahh free will.

Satan was already in the world, Adam never had a chance, and God knew that.
 
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Iollain

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That is true, sin and death took over everything, now where is that Garden? Is it a real Garden that is not corrupted like the world?
 
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