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original sin

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DarkCloud

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Hi all,

Something has been bothering me on my journey with the Lord, and I'm sure many of you had come across this "road block" before also; so hopefully you can give me some advice on how to side step this problem.

The question is how can we be punished from original sin? That doesn't seem fair or just, and God is perfectly just. Would we punish a child for the crimes of its parents? Even in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.” This seems like a contradiction. What do the Biblical scholars have to teach us on this?
 

qh93536

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DarkCloud said:
Hi all,

Something has been bothering me on my journey with the Lord, and I'm sure many of you had come across this "road block" before also; so hopefully you can give me some advice on how to side step this problem.

The question is how can we be punished from original sin? That doesn't seem fair or just, and God is perfectly just. Would we punish a child for the crimes of its parents? Even in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.” This seems like a contradiction. What do the Biblical scholars have to teach us on this?

Original sin is a FALLACY! It goes against the very nature of God. People have taken what was intended to be metaphors and turned them into a literal doctrine.
 
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DarkCloud

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Original sin is a FALLACY! It goes against the very nature of God. People have taken what was intended to be metaphors and turned them into a literal doctrine.

Thanks, that was sort of what I was hoping for.

Original Sin is a trait that was passed on throughout humanity which made us unfailingly prone to sin... it is not an action but more like a disease...

Interesting. Where in scripture does it say it is like a disease. And if scripture does not say this, then how did you come to this realization that original sin is a disease?
 
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qh93536

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DarkCloud said:
Thanks, that was sort of what I was hoping for.

There is a general belief in the Church that man is sinful by nature. Some even believe that we have inherited the sinful nature of Adam. Some talk about how they believe that it is impossible to be obedient to God. Some think that we are all so sinful and even evil, that God should have struck us down.

I am sick and tired of people, Christians, telling me how low we are. I will say this: “You are what you say you are”. But, I have to ask you this: If you are sinful and you know that God has a problem with your sin, why aren’t you doing anything about it? People have given up trying to do anything about their sinfulness because they believe that it is their very nature to sin. That is a Devil’s lie!

I have said this before, but I will say it again. Man was/is not born with an evil nature. Sinful nature is NOT inherited from Adam. It is NOT genetic. It is learned. God created us to be like him, to have a loving, good nature. God knows that we have free will that can either lead us away or to Him. A mans sinful nature is learned during childhood. The environment of which that child grows up in is what shapes his character. His natural God-given character is that of goodness, but, unfortunately most children grow up in a sinful environment, and that is what leads them to become sinful.

That being the case, we can change our character back to what it was intended to be. We are not locked into a sinful nature as many believe. God does not want, nor did he intend for us to be sinful. Yes, we will sin, for free will will allow us to make mistakes. But, that does not have to be our nature. You do not give up on yourselves, thinking that it is hopeless. If you look down on yourselves, then you will be down where you are looking. That is not what God wants.

He wants us all to elevate ourselves up to a righteous nature where he can talk to us. He wants us to be on his level, for he is our loving Father and our purpose is to be His family. It is entirely possible to be obedient to Him. Some think that it is impossible, so they don’t even try. How can you be obedient to God? Love Him and you will be obedient. For when you truly love someone, you will place their needs above yours.
 
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Mister Emu

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Interesting. Where in scripture does it say it is like a disease. And if scripture does not say this, then how did you come to this realization that original sin is a disease?
A) Sin entered into the world through one man... Adam.(Rom 5:12)
B) Sons are not punished for the sins of their father. You have to do your own sinning.(Ezekial 18:20)

This leads me to believe that even though sin entered through Adam, we do not carry the burden of Adam's sins directly, but indirectly through a perversion of our nature that came about with the knowledge of good and evil.

qh,

It is not a matter of the enviroment wherein one is raised... no matter the raising... no matter the conditions every single one of us will sin or has sinned... it is an unfailing characterisitc of our race.

That does not mean we are to just give in to sin... but fight it with every ounce of our beings...

There is a difference between noting one's deficiencies and just giving in to them...
 
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Kristofor

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qh93536 said:
There is a general belief in the Church that man is sinful by nature. Some even believe that we have inherited the sinful nature of Adam. Some talk about how they believe that it is impossible to be obedient to God. Some think that we are all so sinful and even evil, that God should have struck us down.

I am sick and tired of people, Christians, telling me how low we are. I will say this: “You are what you say you are”. But, I have to ask you this: If you are sinful and you know that God has a problem with your sin, why aren’t you doing anything about it? People have given up trying to do anything about their sinfulness because they believe that it is their very nature to sin. That is a Devil’s lie!

I have said this before, but I will say it again. Man was/is not born with an evil nature. Sinful nature is NOT inherited from Adam. It is NOT genetic. It is learned. God created us to be like him, to have a loving, good nature. God knows that we have free will that can either lead us away or to Him. A mans sinful nature is learned during childhood. The environment of which that child grows up in is what shapes his character. His natural God-given character is that of goodness, but, unfortunately most children grow up in a sinful environment, and that is what leads them to become sinful.

That being the case, we can change our character back to what it was intended to be. We are not locked into a sinful nature as many believe. God does not want, nor did he intend for us to be sinful. Yes, we will sin, for free will will allow us to make mistakes. But, that does not have to be our nature. You do not give up on yourselves, thinking that it is hopeless. If you look down on yourselves, then you will be down where you are looking. That is not what God wants.

He wants us all to elevate ourselves up to a righteous nature where he can talk to us. He wants us to be on his level, for he is our loving Father and our purpose is to be His family. It is entirely possible to be obedient to Him. Some think that it is impossible, so they don’t even try. How can you be obedient to God? Love Him and you will be obedient. For when you truly love someone, you will place their needs above yours.


Very true, I too dislike the fact that many christians say we are sinners but dont do anything about it. Sin was introduced in the Garden of eden, and from that moment the world became sinful. No person is free of sin, however that doesnt stop us going to heaven because God sees our heart, and while we and other men see our skin we know God looks at the Inward appearance. I think its just a matter of perspective. Sure we live in a sinful world but evey time we ask God for forgiveness he wipes the slate and it's as if we never were part of that sinful world. However it is impossible unless your God to live in a sinful world and be free from sin. So the best we can do is ask for forgiveness.

In terms of if sin is passed through generations. I think yes at one stage it was. We know in 1 Kings 21:1-29, Ahab is spared because he repented and told that God's wroth would not come in his generation but would come in the days of his son.

I think that God sure said that it would happen in the days of his son but remembering the context and the time period, that is a huge thing. It is still very much a punishment to ahab. Family was and still is a huge thing and for ahab's line to be dimished somewhere in such a way would be a bad punishment because it says that the whole family line is bad and that is because the parents must have sinned. I think the whole idea of carrying out the punishment in the next generation is a way God uses to show that because someone has repented that he just wont let them see the punishment. Remember when God says something it will happen and is final, so God shows his forgiveness by delaying the punishment.
 
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tapero

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DarkCloud said:
Hi all,

Something has been bothering me on my journey with the Lord, and I'm sure many of you had come across this "road block" before also; so hopefully you can give me some advice on how to side step this problem.

The question is how can we be punished from original sin? That doesn't seem fair or just, and God is perfectly just. Would we punish a child for the crimes of its parents? Even in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.” This seems like a contradiction. What do the Biblical scholars have to teach us on this?
We sin because Adam and Eve fell. If they ate from the tree of life first then we wouldn't be in our condition we are today. We aren't being punished. God pronounced a curse on the world and a solution (Jesus). Christ took our punishment. We get disciplined from God but that is loving discipline not punishment. If you have a loving parent they gently correct their children. The way we think of things can get messed up. We have to remember that God is love. He's not like our parents are. He loves us with a love we can hardly fathom. And to the posts that I saw, we continue to sin all the time. The bible says any claim they are without sin lie. Remember it's the curse that makes us live in this condition of a fallen world. Adam and Eve were real people. It really happened. Tapero
 
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qh93536

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tapero said:
We sin because Adam and Eve fell. If they ate from the tree of life first then we wouldn't be in our condition we are today. We aren't being punished. God pronounced a curse on the world and a solution (Jesus). Christ took our punishment. We get disciplined from God but that is loving discipline not punishment. If you have a loving parent they gently correct their children. The way we think of things can get messed up. We have to remember that God is love. He's not like our parents are. He loves us with a love we can hardly fathom. And to the posts that I saw, we continue to sin all the time. The bible says any claim they are without sin lie. Remember it's the curse that makes us live in this condition of a fallen world. Adam and Eve were real people. It really happened. Tapero

Bologna! We sin because we are imperfect due to the fact that God gave us complete free will!
 
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Kristofor

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qh93536 said:
Bologna! We sin because we are imperfect due to the fact that God gave us complete free will!

Thats right, we sin because of the free will God gave us but because Adam and Eve made a choice it made it impossible for any other person to be completely free from sin. So in essence, you just said the same thing.
 
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sherry40

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So then we are somehow perfect and do not need Christ? Christ died for nothing because there is not orginal sin? IF this is true then prove it by living a completely sinless life from birth, never break any of the comandments contained in the bible in thought word or deed! Jesus said hating someone or calling them a name was as bad as mudering them.
All have sinned and fall short of the glory oF God. There is no one perfect not one single person. God himself had to become the author of our faith.

Romans 5

Peace and Joy

1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we[b] rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but we[c] also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us. 6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Here's how I think of it...



"Sin" is a spiritual disease. It's that twisted, selfish, godless, "sick" quality in us. Yes, I think we're born with that spiritual disease. This is "original sin."

"Sins" (omission and comission) are the SYMPTOMS of that disease. If a person has a cold, they are apt to caugh or sneeze or have a runny nose - the symptoms flow from the disease (not the other way around). Bad fruit comes from bad trees. It's not the caugh that gives us a cold, it's a cold that causes us to caugh. Now, if a person isn't caughing at this very second - that doesn't necessarily mean they don't have a cold. They just don't have any symptoms just then. It doens't mean they are well (maybe just well drugged, lol).




An illustration (always limited):

I shoot my roommate, a bullet enters his head and he dies. There are some that would agrue that the only "bad" thing was my pulling the trigger that resulted in the bullet causing a death. Until the second I pulled that trigger - well, the bullet entered his head and he died - there was nothing wrong, no badness, no sin, just wonderful righteousness and holiness.

I disagree. There's a history to that bullet entering my roommates head! And the history goes back to my heart. Back to something INSIDE of me, something in my twisted nature. The pulling the trigger is simply the last step in a long chain starting in my heart, my nature.


MY $0.01...


Keep the faith! Share the love!


- Josiah


.
 
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Ethan_Fetch

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DarkCloud said:
Hi all,

Something has been bothering me on my journey with the Lord, and I'm sure many of you had come across this "road block" before also; so hopefully you can give me some advice on how to side step this problem.

The question is how can we be punished from original sin? That doesn't seem fair or just, and God is perfectly just. Would we punish a child for the crimes of its parents? Even in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.” This seems like a contradiction. What do the Biblical scholars have to teach us on this?

If you are willing to accept that your sins were imputed to Christ, why do you resist the idea that Adam's sin was imputed to you?
 
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Ethan_Fetch

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Iollain said:
No, we do not have Adam's original sin, but because of Adam we are all fallen, destined to hell, without the Saviour. Even a babe that dies after it's first breath, who did not sin, does still need the Saviour.

Then there is no sense in Christ taking our sins upon Himself.

If we don't have Adam's sin but only our own, then we don't need a Substitute.

And frankly, you're contradicting yourself, "fallenness" is Adam's sin.
 
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Iollain

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Ethan_Fetch said:
Then there is no sense in Christ taking our sins upon Himself.

If we don't have Adam's sin but only our own, then we don't need a Substitute.

And frankly, you're contradicting yourself, "fallenness" is Adam's sin.


No, i mean a babe does not have Adam's sin, the babe did not eat a fruit they were not supposed to, however, they are in that fallen state because of Adam's sin. It is the result of Adam's sin.
 
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Ethan_Fetch

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Iollain said:
No, i mean a babe does not have Adam's sin, the babe did not eat a fruit they were not supposed to, however, they are in that fallen state because of Adam's sin. It is the result of Adam's sin.

But what I am saying is that that baby has that "fallenness" because he or she is descended from Adam and we cannot disconnect cause from effect.

It would be an even greater injustice for God to condemn us for the effect of Adam's sin while holding us innocent of the cause.

And again, Christ did more than just represent us to God, though we often speak of it that way. He actually took the guilt and penalty for our sin upon Himself.

He did this because God has imposed the guilt and penalty for Adam's sin upon us.
 
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qh93536

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Kristofor said:
Thats right, we sin because of the free will God gave us but because Adam and Eve made a choice it made it impossible for any other person to be completely free from sin. So in essence, you just said the same thing.

No You need to understand that Adam was an experiment. Because of his free will, God did not know what he would do, which way he would turn. Satan, though unplanned, became a part of that experiment, and the result was a negative effect. Our sinful nature has nothing to do with Adam and Eve. It is not impossible for us to live sin free, though highly improbable.
 
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Iollain

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Ethan_Fetch said:
But what I am saying is that that baby has that "fallenness" because he or she is descended from Adam and we cannot disconnect cause from effect.

It would be an even greater injustice for God to condemn us for the effect of Adam's sin while holding us innocent of the cause.

And again, Christ did more than just represent us to God, though we often speak of it that way. He actually took the guilt and penalty for our sin upon Himself.

He did this because God has imposed the guilt and penalty for Adam's sin upon us.


But the babe is not guilty of Adam's sin, but is in a fallen state because of, and not because of because of Jesus.
 
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