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Original Sin?

Holy Warrior

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Hi, in speaking with my flatmates, I realised I don't know the calvinist point of view on original sin.

Do calvinists believe that we are born sinful, that we are tainted by Adam's sin in Eden, or is sin something that we bring upon ourselves as we live our lives?

I would lean towards the former, as without some form of original sin, that means we have the potential to live a sinless life without God (not saying its something that would actually happen, but there is the possibility) whereas the Bible has stated that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Thoughts?
 

5solas

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Holy Warrior said:
Hi, in speaking with my flatmates, I realised I don't know the calvinist point of view on original sin.
Hi Warrior
If you want to learn more about Calvinism then just read these excellent short articles (*irony*:D )
by the way: the first chapter will answer your question!

link: http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/index.html
THE FIVE POINTS OF CALVINISM

The Five Points of Calvinism by Herman Hanko, Homer Hoeksema, and Gise J. Van Baren, Copyright 1976 by Reformed Free Publishing Association. All rights reserved. No part of this book may be used or reprinted in any form without permission from the publisher, except in the case of a brief quotation used in connection with a critical article or review. For information address: Reformed Free Publishing Association, 4949 Ivanrest Avenue, S.W., Grandville, Michigan 49418-9709.
FOREWORD

The five cardinal doctrines expounded in the chapters of this book are known to many as the Five Points of Calvinism, and to others as the "doctrines of grace." While these doctrines, though certainly not originated by John Calvin, were re-emphasized and taught anew by him at the time of the Reformation, it remained for the Synod of Dordrecht, 1618-19, which was convened to settle the Arminian controversy in the Reformed Churches of the Netherlands, to formulate these truths with great clarity and in painstaking detail. This official formulation was accomplished in a creed which represented the consensus of all Reformed churches of that day, the Canons of Dordrecht.


To this day, these doctrinal declarations have remained unaltered; and they continue to be a mighty bulwark against the heresy of Arminian free-willism, the danger of which is as great and greater than it was in the days of Jacobus Arminius himself.

The format of these chapters is accounted for by the fact that they were originally five popular lectures, delivered in 1966-67 in Grand Rapids, Michigan under the sponsorship of the Protestant Reformed Churches of that area.

The three authors are ministers in the Protestant Reformed Churches in America. Herman C. Hanko is professor of New Testament and Church History at the Theological School of the Protestant Reformed Churches; he has written Chapters 1 and 2. Homer C. Hoeksema is professor of Dogmatics and Old Testament at the same Theological School, and is the author of Chapter 3. Gise J. Van Baren is pastor of First Protestant Reformed Church of Grand Rapids, Michigan; and he is the author of Chapters 4 and 5.



May the lord our God use these chapters for the instruction and enlightenment of many.
(As of 1997, Homer C. Hoeksema is deceased; Herman Hanko continues to teach in the Theological School; Gise J. Van Baren currently pastors the Loveland, Colorado Protestant Reformed Church.)
CONTENTS:

Return to the literature index
Return to the Protestant Reformed Church page
Last modified, 2-Apr-1997
 
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Irishcat922

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The Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter VI
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and the Punishment thereof

1. Our first parents, being seduced by the subtilty and temptations of Satan, sinned, in eating the forbidden fruit.(1) This their sin, God was pleased, according to His wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory.(2)

Scripture Proof (1)

EAV Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

EAV 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled1 Eve through his subtilty,2 so your minds should be corrupted3 from the simplicity4 that is in Christ.

Scripture Proof (2)

EAV Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all1 in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

2. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion, with God,(3) and so became dead in sin,(4) and wholly defiled in all the parts and faculties of soul and body.(5)

Scripture Proof (3)

EAV Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant1 to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

EAV Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.1

EAV Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking1 in the garden in the cool2 of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

EAV Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

EAV Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Scripture Proof (4)

EAV Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.1

EAV Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened,1 who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Scripture Proof (5)

EAV *** 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain1 elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

EAV Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts1 of his heart was only evil continually.2

EAV Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

EAV Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

EAV Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

EAV Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

EAV Rom 3:13 Their throat is an open sepulchre;1 with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

EAV Rom 3:14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

EAV Rom 3:15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

EAV Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

EAV Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

EAV Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

3. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;(6) and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.(7)

Scripture Proof (6)

EAV Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

EAV Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish1 the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth2 upon the earth.

EAV Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

EAV Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.1

EAV Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

EAV Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for1 that all have sinned:

EAV Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

EAV Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

EAV Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence1 death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

EAV Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one1 judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one2 the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

EAV Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

EAV 1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

EAV 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

EAV 1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening1 spirit.

EAV 1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Scripture Proof (7)

EAV Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

EAV Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

EAV Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

EAV Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

 
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Holy Warrior said:
Hi, in speaking with my flatmates, I realised I don't know the calvinist point of view on original sin.

Do calvinists believe that we are born sinful, that we are tainted by Adam's sin in Eden, or is sin something that we bring upon ourselves as we live our lives?

I would lean towards the former, as without some form of original sin, that means we have the potential to live a sinless life without God (not saying its something that would actually happen, but there is the possibility) whereas the Bible has stated that ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Thoughts?
Original sin, as you seem to acknowledge, is not a reference the first sin but, rather, a reference to our origin. Calvinists acknowledge that man sins because he is, by nature, a sinner and in his natural state only desires to serve his flesh.

God bless
 
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oneiric said:
[/font]Impossible. Unbelief is a sin. You have the ability to live a sinless life when you have become born again, but not before that by any means.
Living a sinless life even after being born again is an impossibility because we still reside in fallen, sinful flesh. Though we have been born again spiritually we will not truly be able to live a life that is fully pleasing to our Father until He glorifies us in Heaven and removes all vestiges of sin from our being.

God bless
 
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oneiric

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Living a sinless life even after being born again is an impossibility because we still reside in fallen, sinful flesh. Though we have been born again spiritually we will not truly be able to live a life that is fully pleasing to our Father until He glorifies us in Heaven and removes all vestiges of sin from our being.

God bless

Then why does Paul and John tell us to no longer sin. Jesus said it Himself. "Go, and sin no more." You are totally correct: we simply cannot live a sinless life on own our. However, we are not. Christ's blood saves us from sin, so that we may no longer be a slave to it.

God bless,
Rachel
 
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oneiric said:
Then why does Paul and John tell us to no longer sin. Jesus said it Himself. "Go, and sin no more."
Numerous reasons. The thing you need to make sure you are not doing is confusing the imperative with the indicative. Just because we are commanded to do something does not mean that we have the ability. Imperative commands, like "Go and sin no more" are not mean to be viewed as vain or valueless. In fact, they are some of the most valuable commands we are given because they show us our inability to do so and cause us to cleave all that much closer to God and depend all that much more on His grace and mercy. For instance, we are commanded to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength" (Deut 6:5). While we exist in this fallen flesh can we truly love the Lord as He commands? Of course not.

You are totally correct: we simply cannot live a sinless life on own our. However, we are not. Christ's blood saves us from sin, so that we may no longer be a slave to it.

God bless,
Rachel
I agree. We are saved from the penalty of sin but sin still resides in our flesh. This is the war that Paul speaks of in Romans 7, the war between our new, redeemed nature and our sinful flesh. We are commanded to live our lives as those who have been redeemed from the power of sin yet every Christian whose been a Christian longer than eight minutes knows that this is a process that lasts our whole temporal lives. As I said, we will not truly worship and glorify God in the manner that He demands until we are glorified in Heaven.

God bless
 
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oneiric

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Reformationist said:
Numerous reasons. The thing you need to make sure you are not doing is confusing the imperative with the indicative. Just because we are commanded to do something does not mean that we have the ability. Imperative commands, like "Go and sin no more" are not mean to be viewed as vain or valueless. In fact, they are some of the most valuable commands we are given because they show us our inability to do so and cause us to cleave all that much closer to God and depend all that much more on His grace and mercy. For instance, we are commanded to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength" (Deut 6:5). While we exist in this fallen flesh can we truly love the Lord as He commands? Of course not.
The term indicative means to state a fact. Why would God command us to do the impossible many many times throughout the Bible when we simply cannot? I don't think it's an inability, since we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. The blood of Christ saves us from sin, and therefore, its penalty, hell. I think we can as Christians love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. We cannot do such a thing without Christ. But we are saved from sin and we are no longer slaves to our flesh.


I agree. We are saved from the penalty of sin but sin still resides in our flesh. This is the war that Paul speaks of in Romans 7, the war between our new, redeemed nature and our sinful flesh. We are commanded to live our lives as those who have been redeemed from the power of sin yet every Christian whose been a Christian longer than eight minutes knows that this is a process that lasts our whole temporal lives. As I said, we will not truly worship and glorify God in the manner that He demands until we are glorified in Heaven.

God bless
In Romans 7, Paul talks about how he used to be as an unregenerate. He was a slave of his flesh and was constantly sinning. This is not how a Christian lives. He doesn't stay that way. He moves on to chapter 8 where he is now a slave to God and not to his flesh. He follows Christ and His message, which is to love God with all his heart, mind, and soul and to love his fellow neighbor. In chapter 7, Paul is self centered. In chapter 8, he is Christ centered. He cannot be both. If Paul was a Christian who still contantly sinned, then he is the most contradictory writer of the Bible since he tells people to follow his example of righteousness and to live without sin. Why would he tell new Christians to follow his example if he was a depraved sinner? I don't think he would.

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

God bless,
Rachel
 
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tigersnare

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oneiric said:
The term indicative means to state a fact. Why would God command us to do the impossible many many times throughout the Bible when we simply cannot? I don't think it's an inability, since we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. The blood of Christ saves us from sin, and therefore, its penalty, hell. I think we can as Christians love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. We cannot do such a thing without Christ. But we are saved from sin and we are no longer slaves to our flesh.

You are correct in that we are no longer slaves to sin.

When you say, "the blood of Christ saves us from sin" what do you mean exactly?

If I can pose a hypothetical question, What need of a savior does one have if he no longer comits sin?

1 John 8
"If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
 
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oneiric

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We need a savior for every need. Jesus' blood keeps us and holds us through faith throughout our whole lives. Grace certainly does not end at salvation. The point of a savior is to save us from future sin and to forgive us of our past ones. If when we are saved an we commit an occasional act of sin, we can appeal to the Advocate and repent. 1 John 8 is totally correct. If we say we have never sinned before, then we are liars and we make God a liar. Also remember that John was writing the epistle against the gnostics, who believe that sin could not permeate spirit, and so, they could sin with impunity since sin could not taint their spirit. John continues to say that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9 Furthermore, John writes his epistle so that his readers would "not sin." (1 John 2:1)
Just like the rest of the Bible, each verse must be looked at in its context. To say that John advocates sin makes him self contradictory.

Blessings,
Rachel
 
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oneiric said:
The term indicative means to state a fact.
Thank you. I used the word so I was already aware what it meant though.

Why would God command us to do the impossible many many times throughout the Bible when we simply cannot?
To show you that you "simply cannot." When God shows us our INability to obey His commands it causes us to lean that much more on His grace and gain a greater understanding of our reliance on Him.

I don't think it's an inability, since we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.
Ummm...you can't do all things through Christ, nor is that what that verse is saying. If you look at the context you will see that Paul is telling us that by relying on Christ's power and following His example we are able to face all circumstances with contentment. Read verses 10-13.

The blood of Christ saves us from sin, and therefore, its penalty, hell. I think we can as Christians love God with all our heart, mind, and soul. We cannot do such a thing without Christ. But we are saved from sin and we are no longer slaves to our flesh.
We can love God in the manner that He has commanded. However, we can only do that in our glorified state. Just because we are no longer slaves to our sinful flesh doesn't mean that we don't sin. Every time we sin we are failing to love God in the manner that He has commanded. This should be a beacon of light shining on our inadequacy which, in turn, should enlighten us to our reliance on Him and His grace.

In Romans 7, Paul talks about how he used to be as an unregenerate. He was a slave of his flesh and was constantly sinning. This is not how a Christian lives. He doesn't stay that way.
Uh...no:

Romans 7:21-24
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am!

This is clearly a reference to Paul, in his regenerate state. First off, he acknowledges that he wills to do good. This "good" is righteous good. Unregenerate man is incapable of righteous good because he desires nothing by faith in God. Secondly, he comments on how he "delights in the law of God." Unregenerate man does not delight in the law of God. He rebels against it. He views God as the enemy, His law as foolishness and is unable to submit to it (Romans 8:7; 1 Cor 2:14). Additionally, he speaks of the war in his flesh that does battle against his mind, which delights in the law of God. Also, the law that Paul is brought into captivity under is the "law of sin." This is quite important because it is substantially different than the law to which the unregenerate are subject, i.e., the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2). And lastly, Paul does not say, "O wretched man that I was!" He says, "O wretched man that I AM!"

If Paul was a Christian who still contantly sinned, then he is the most contradictory writer of the Bible since he tells people to follow his example of righteousness and to live without sin. Why would he tell new Christians to follow his example if he was a depraved sinner? I don't think he would.
LOL! If he laments the fact that he sins constantly you see him as a depraved sinner. I find that amusing because it causes me to see him as an honest Christian. Rather ironic.

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
And this means what to you, that true Christians don't commit sins? :scratch: That we are not "free indeed" unless we cease sinning? :confused:

God bless
 
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tigersnare

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oneiric said:
The point of a savior is to save us from future sin and to forgive us of our past ones.
What do you mean by "save us from future sin"? Do you mean keep us from commiting future sin, or do you mean like our past sins, he makes possible forgivness of future sins as well?



oneiric said:
If when we are saved an we commit an occasional act of sin, we can appeal to the Advocate and repent. 1 John 8 is totally correct. If we say we have never sinned before, then we are liars and we make God a liar. Also remember that John was writing the epistle against the gnostics, who believe that sin could not permeate spirit, and so, they could sin with impunity since sin could not taint their spirit. John continues to say that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." 1 John 3:9 Furthermore, John writes his epistle so that his readers would "not sin." (1 John 2:1)
Just like the rest of the Bible, each verse must be looked at in its context. To say that John advocates sin makes him self contradictory.

Blessings,
Rachel

I agree with you, I think I understand the context John was writing in, and I don't think I impied he was advocating sin.

1 John 3:9 (ESV)
No one born of God makes a practice of sinnning, for God's(his) seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinnning because he has been born of God.

I think practicing rightouness, with the occasional sins and by God's grace, him revealing new sins that we did not see before, is normative Christian living and growth.

Practicing sin, what John is warning us about, is not normative Christian living and growth.

Overcoming the world and victory in our Christian lives, looks like this....it's our faith. 1 John 5:4
 
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First you acknowledge that Christians still sin:

oneiric said:
If when we are saved an we commit an occasional act of sin, we can appeal to the Advocate and repent.
Then you cite John, which claims that children of God do not sin.

John continues to say that "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Either you believe that Christians sin or you believe that true believers don't sin. "...doth not commit sin..." doesnt' mean "does not sin." It means, "does not live a lifestyle of sin."

Just like the rest of the Bible, each verse must be looked at in its context.
Tigersnare, don't you just love it when people say this? They might as well say, "Hey tigersnare, you know you didn't consider the context when you posted so, in the future, try to make sure you do that."

To say that John advocates sin makes him self contradictory.
No one said any such thing. There's a huge difference between submitting that John acknowledges that Christians continue to sin, though it no longer leads to death, and claiming that John advocates sin.

God bless
 
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tigersnare said:
1 John 3:9 (ESV)
No one born of God makes a practice of sinnning, for God's(his) seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinnning because he has been born of God.
MUCH BETTER translation tigersnare. I truly have to get me an ESV Bible.

God bless
 
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tigersnare

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Reformationist said:
LOL! If he laments the fact that he sins constantly you see him as a depraved sinner. I find that amusing because it causes me to see him as an honest Christian. Rather ironic.

Reformationist I can relate to what you are saying here, reading Paul talk about his sin is one of the most encouraging things I read in the bible. It really frees you up to talk about your sin to loving brothers and sisters who want to pray for you and love you, even in your sin. I think it is normal christian living to sin and repent until that day when we go and meet the father. Though I hate my sin, I can be realistic and realize there is so much sin there, and so much more that God has to reveal to me, I couldn't possibly stop sinning all together. And that shows me just how depraved I really was, and by God's grace, drives me back to the cross everyday with my fithly sin, thanking him for something I could not do myself.

There seems to be an attituded outside the Reformed community, that I was in, that tries to run from any discussions of sin, as if it weren't even there and wasn't a day in day out problem.
 
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tigersnare said:
Reformationist I can relate to what you are saying here, reading Paul talk about his sin is one of the most encouraging things I read in the bible. It really frees you up to talk about your sin to loving brothers and sisters who want to pray for you and love you, even in your sin. I think it is normal christian living to sin and repent until that day when we go and meet the father. Though I hate my sin, I can be realistic and realize there is so much sin there, and so much more that God has to reveal to me, I couldn't possibly stop sinning all together. And that shows me just how depraved I really was, and by God's grace, drives me back to the cross everyday with my fithly sin, thanking him for something I could not do myself.
For some reason I keep thinking my thought on this is somewhat of a biblical anecdote, though I could certainly be wrong. Anyway, I thought I read something in the Bible about our proclivity, at the beginning of our Christian walk, to view our sinfulness as a molehill but as we grow in Christ and in obedience it is like we are walking toward that molehill and due to God increasingly enlightening us to the depths of our depravity that molehill becomes a mountain. It is not that we sin more but that we gain a greater understanding of the magnitude of our sinfulness. Anyway, if it isn't in the Bible I think it is an apropos analogy.

There seems to be an attituded outside the Reformed community, that I was in, that tries to run from any discussions of sin, as if it weren't even there and wasn't a day in day out problem.
You know, I often wonder about this view. Generally speaking, those who advocate such a disillusioned view of the enormity of our depravity are the same who advocate the belief of the freeness of man's will. I am not saying that those who advocate free will always believe that man's sin is something he can overcome in this life but I have never heard a reformed theologian profess unglorified man's ability to overcome the sinfulness of his flesh. Anyway, for those who do purport that man, in his unglorified state, can overcome his sin while also purporting the belief that man's will is free, I often wonder why they don't just "freely will" to overcome their sin. For that matter, though they profess the belief that unglorified man can become sinless they fail to ever show a single example of anyone doing so.

God bless
 
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theseed

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I believe that we are born with a sinful nature, and that God also imputes the sin of Adam and Eve. The only to escape the wages of this sin is imputed rightousness which comes by grace through faith, a gift of God.
 
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