Original Sin, fair or not?

[Spyr]

One of my biggest beefs with christianity is the idea of original sin. I find it incredibly unfair that future generations are black-listed in advance just because Adam and Eve disobeyed god.

Your thoughts?

 

[Shane Roach]

One of my biggest beefs with christianity is the idea of original sin. I find it incredibly unfair that future generations are black-listed in advance just because Adam and Eve disobeyed god.

Your thoughts?

No one is black listed. Original sin had its effect on this world including the soul, but God has always had a plan for redemption. People are judged on their own merrits. Original sin is the natural consequence, however, of sinful activity in a world where God has apparently allowed choices to have consequences.

 

[elman]

One of my biggest beefs with christianity is the idea of original sin. I find it incredibly unfair that future generations are black-listed in advance just because Adam and Eve disobeyed god.

Your thoughts?

Many Christains including me do not believe in original sin. Ezekiel 18 clearly teaches we are responsible for our sin and no one else'.

 

[Shane Roach]

Many Christains including me do not believe in original sin. Ezekiel 18 clearly teaches we are responsible for our sin and no one else'.

Original sin as a phrase tends to refer to the entrance of sin into the world by Adam. I can look up a verse if you need that but bottom line I think it's a little confusing to try to imply that Christians don't believe in 'original sin' given its usual use in language to something Christians do indeed believe.

 

[CSMR]

Many Christains including me do not believe in original sin. Ezekiel 18 clearly teaches we are responsible for our sin and no one else'.

Original sin does not imply that we are not responsible for our sin.

 

[CSMR]

One of my biggest beefs with christianity is the idea of original sin. I find it incredibly unfair that future generations are black-listed in advance just because Adam and Eve disobeyed god.
Your thoughts?

No, all generations disobey God by nature, and it is this that makes them "blacklisted". Please explain what you mean by "unfair".

 

[papakapp]

One of my biggest beefs with christianity is the idea of original sin. I find it incredibly unfair that future generations are black-listed in advance just because Adam and Eve disobeyed god.

Your thoughts?

check out the first chapter of Job. It talks about God and Satan having some sort of cosmic bet about why Job really honors God. Personally, I think Job is the one book in the Bible that is a story, not a factual account. I believe the story is fully inspired, but the point of Job's existence is a metaphor for all of us. In that way, Job is the prototypical man, just like Adam... hence the relevance.

Now, with that in mind... why is there original sin?

Basically, Satan says "Well of course Job will worship You, look how rich he is and how much You have blessed him. So God says "Okay, Satan, you can screw up his life and when he continues to worship me, that will prove that his love he loves me for me, and not loves me for what I give him."

Therefore, we are all condemed to a ****** life, and a mind full of sin because if we continue to love God even in spite of this then that will prove that our love is genuine. By the way, at the endof his life, Job got back twice as much as he ever had. That would be prototypical of heaven.

The linch pin to the whole thing is the concept that we are not on the throne. God is on the throne. We must show that we can accept that before God will elevate our status. Those who refuse to accept that...do not get elevated. This is sumarized by the New Testament quote "He who loses his life will find it, and he who seeks to find his life will loose it.

 

[Phinehas]

Sin entered world of man by Adam.
Redemption enters man by Christ.
First sin (i.e. sin nature) not our fault. Redemption not our fault.
They cancel each other out... That is... if you have redemption.

According to God, even though we, personally and directly, aren't the cause of either, we are responsible for what we do with both.

Kinda like being born with cancer, but you choose whether or not you want the Doctor to operate.

 

[CSMR]

(By not our fault you mean not our choice? Since a sin nature is the greatest fault possible!)

 

[papakapp]

Sin entered world of man by Adam.
Redemption enters man by Christ.
First sin (i.e. sin nature) not our fault. Redemption not our fault.
They cancel each other out... That is... if you have redemption.

According to God, even though we, personally and directly, aren't the cause of either, we are responsible for what we do with both.

Kinda like being born with cancer, but you choose whether or not you want the Doctor to operate.

well that was sure a campus crusade type answer. as much as I hate taking the plain sense of the Bible and turning it into a metaphor, I will do it now.

The Bible says "Through Adam, all have sinned." does that mean that we inhereted sin in the same way a person would inherit blue eyes or does it mean by virtue of our humanity we are sinful? Think about it... If Adam introduced the world to sin then how was sin introduced to Adam? You can't just build half a bridge and then tell somone to jump the rest of the way.

 

[JustJack!]

The Bible says "Through Adam, all have sinned." does that mean that we inhereted sin in the same way a person would inherit blue eyes or does it mean by virtue of our humanity we are sinful? Think about it... If Adam introduced the world to sin then how was sin introduced to Adam? You can't just build half a bridge and then tell somone to jump the rest of the way.

Christian sin is nothing more than disobeying the will of God. Sin was introduced to Adam though Eve. It was introduced to her by the Serpent that convinced her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil that God had specifically commanded them not to eat from.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

well that was sure a campus crusade type answer. as much as I hate taking the plain sense of the Bible and turning it into a metaphor, I will do it now.

The Bible says "Through Adam, all have sinned." does that mean that we inhereted sin in the same way a person would inherit blue eyes or does it mean by virtue of our humanity we are sinful? Think about it... If Adam introduced the world to sin then how was sin introduced to Adam? You can't just build half a bridge and then tell somone to jump the rest of the way.

I believe your answer will be simply answered if you read Genesis 3.
Please note the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
There, I pointed to your bridge, but I can't make you cross it.

 

[Blackmarch]

One of my biggest beefs with christianity is the idea of original sin. I find it incredibly unfair that future generations are black-listed in advance just because Adam and Eve disobeyed god.

Your thoughts?

Of course original sin is unfair. It would be swallowed up in Christ's sacrifice if it was true, so that children are exempt from it.

 

[Thibeault]

honostly i do not think that original sin is fair. But hey thats my oppinion

 

[vanshan]

Original sin is an error that has never been accepted by the Orthodox Church (which is the second largest Christian body in the world). It is an innovation which developed and greatly influenced all branches of western Christianity, although there may be individuals who reject it. The idea that we are guilty of the sins of anyone else is false. What does impact us from the original fall is that death was unleashed into the world and it's corrupting effects. We are not born guilty, but our desires are corrupted which lead us toward sin. Death is our enemy, not guilt. Christ freed us from the bonds of death.

Another stange doctrine which many falsely have come to believe is that Christ took our punishment for sin upon himself. He did take death upon himself, which He didn't deserve because He lived without sin, but He was not punished by God for our sins. Would that make sense? God punishes God to satisfy Himself and forgive man? What kind of god would that be? No, Christ willingly suffered death to defeat death, so that we all can be free from death, which we are all subject to because of our sin. When you sin you separate yourself from the source of all life--God. That was Christ's work on the cross--to defeat death, not satisfy an angry God.

Basil

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Original sin is an error that has never been accepted by the Orthodox Church (which is the second largest Christian body in the world). It is an innovation which developed and greatly influenced all branches of western Christianity, although there may be individuals who reject it. The idea that we are guilty of the sins of anyone else is false. What does impact us from the original fall is that death was unleashed into the world and it's corrupting effects. We are not born guilty, but our desires are corrupted which lead us toward sin. Death is our enemy, not guilt. Christ freed us from the bonds of death.

Another stange doctrine which many falsely have come to believe is that Christ took our punishment for sin upon himself. He did take death upon himself, which He didn't deserve because He lived without sin, but He was not punished by God for our sins. Would that make sense? God punishes God to satisfy Himself and forgive man? What kind of god would that be? No, Christ willingly suffered death to defeat death, so that we all can be free from death, which we are all subject to because of our sin. When you sin you separate yourself from the source of all life--God. That was Christ's work on the cross--to defeat death, not satisfy an angry God.

Basil

Original sin does not mean that I am guilty of another's sin... so I suppose it falls on what the individual is holding as the interpretation of that term.

 

[Spyr]

forgive me for not being clearer in the OP, I'm speaking more of the fact that after Adam and Eve ate the fruit they were then aware of Good and Evil, if memory serves. From what I understood when I was in church it's because of that, which is passed from generation to generation, that we live in this world and not in Eden.

 

[FourScoreandaGecko]

Don't be deceived. Original sin is NOT Christian doctrine. In fact, the premise of original sin is a counter Christian doctrine. A larger number in the faith are beginning to recognize it.

Basically original sin taints us all because Adam and Eve sinned in the garden giving them and their descendants knowledge of sin. Therefore, ever person is born under that sin, doomed to hell. It is the justification for Catholics/Orthodox/etc. infant baptism practice and would like to condemn stillborns, abortions, and every dead baby to hell. If that isn't bad enough, original sin destroys the sacrifice of Christ, which is of course the foundation of all Christianity. By saying that all humans are born sinful this leaves two options for Christ:

1. Christ, being man, was sinful, which on top of being in direct conflict with countless scripture says that his sacrifice meant nothing. Christ, according to Hebrews was the perfect sinless sacrifice once and for all. To be tainted by sin makes him no different than any man dying on a cross and therefore he is not sufficient. Let them baptize there children, it doesn't matter. With original sin, Christ's death doesn't save us.
2. Christ was not sinful because he was not man. This too contradicts scripture. For one, Hebrews again tells us that Christ was tempted in every way and now acts as a mediator who can sympathize with us. God cannot be tempted to sin. He is perfect and above the wiles of Satan and the urges of the flesh. Second, being strictly a deity, Christ's death is in essence nothing. You can't kill something that is no corporeal. If Christ never came as man, we could not be saved.

Original sin is not only not universal Christian doctrine, it is in fact counter Christian doctrine. Don't let that be your "beef" with Christ. Let it be your "beef" with Catholics.

 

[Spyr]

Christ, being man, was sinful, which on top of being in direct conflict with countless scripture says that his sacrifice meant nothing. Christ, according to Hebrews was the perfect sinless sacrifice once and for all. To be tainted by sin makes him no different than any man dying on a cross and therefore he is not sufficient. Let them baptize there children, it doesn't matter. With original sin, Christ's death doesn't save us.

1. Christ was not sinful because he was not man. This too contradicts scripture. For one, Hebrews again tells us that Christ was tempted in every way and now acts as a mediator who can sympathize with us. God cannot be tempted to sin. He is perfect and above the wiles of Satan and the urges of the flesh. Second, being strictly a deity, Christ's death is in essence nothing. You can't kill something that is no corporeal. If Christ never came as man, we could not be saved.

Original sin is not only not universal Christian doctrine, it is in fact counter Christian doctrine. Don't let that be your "beef" with Christ. Let it be your "beef" with Catholics.

Thanks! Nice answer, I won't let it be my beef anymore. Of course there are others to take its place.

 

[Shane Roach]

Don't be deceived. Original sin is NOT Christian doctrine. In fact, the premise of original sin is a counter Christian doctrine. A larger number in the faith are beginning to recognize it.

Basically original sin taints us all because Adam and Eve sinned in the garden giving them and their descendants knowledge of sin. Therefore, ever person is born under that sin, doomed to hell. It is the justification for Catholics/Orthodox/etc. infant baptism practice and would like to condemn stillborns, abortions, and every dead baby to hell. If that isn't bad enough, original sin destroys the sacrifice of Christ, which is of course the foundation of all Christianity. By saying that all humans are born sinful this leaves two options for Christ:

1. Christ, being man, was sinful, which on top of being in direct conflict with countless scripture says that his sacrifice meant nothing. Christ, according to Hebrews was the perfect sinless sacrifice once and for all. To be tainted by sin makes him no different than any man dying on a cross and therefore he is not sufficient. Let them baptize there children, it doesn't matter. With original sin, Christ's death doesn't save us.
2. Christ was not sinful because he was not man. This too contradicts scripture. For one, Hebrews again tells us that Christ was tempted in every way and now acts as a mediator who can sympathize with us. God cannot be tempted to sin. He is perfect and above the wiles of Satan and the urges of the flesh. Second, being strictly a deity, Christ's death is in essence nothing. You can't kill something that is no corporeal. If Christ never came as man, we could not be saved.

Original sin is not only not universal Christian doctrine, it is in fact counter Christian doctrine. Don't let that be your "beef" with Christ. Let it be your "beef" with Catholics.

I would say issue 1 is dealt with in that He was divinely concieved. I also think your description of the issue as it stands ignores such verses as "by His stripes we are healed," and, "Through Adam death entered the world."

It doesn't get a whole lot clearer than Romans:

[bible]romans 5:12-21[/bible]