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CopticOrthodox said:In my extrememly limited understanding, when Adam sinned he received the consequence of sin, death, seperation from God, and all of his decendents were born in this state. Through the Incarnation, Christ emptied Himself and took on this state, but being God He did not sin. He took on all the sins of the world, and hung on the Cross. He didn't just defeat death, the symptom or consequence, but He defeated the cause, sin. He lived and died without sinning, defeating sin and death. His Spirit and Body were separated, ie He died. His Spirit decended into Hades, but Satan had no power to hold Him since He did not sin. He broke assunder the bars of iron and the gates of brass, and led the rightous from Hades to Paradise. He Rose, and through Baptism we can participate in His death, and rise with Him a new creation.
CopticOrthodox said:When we partake of the Holy Body and Blood, It mingles with our body and blood, and so we are able to participate in the Divine Nature. It is not that we are taken into the divinity, but that by the grace of God we participate in the Divine Nature through Communion. But now we're really getting off topic.
From isshinwhat: ...Original sin is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act."
Although it is proper to each individual,[Cf. Council of Trent: DS 1513.] original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence'. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."
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What, from these statements from the Catechism, disagrees with Orthodox thought?
God Bless,
Neal
In fact, I was surprised by it. I had been told that the RCC teaches that Original Sin means we all inherit the guilt, as well as the consequences, of what Adam and Eve did.
We simply do not see the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception as necessary, given that no human being is born guilty. Human beings are born into a humanity that has broken fellowship with God, with sin and death as consequences. They are not born guilty of the sins of their remote ancestors.
". . .was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin. . ." The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam -- from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
". . .by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race." The immunity from original sin was given to Mary by a singular exemption from a universal law through the same merits of Christ, by which other men are cleansed from sin by baptism. Mary needed the redeeming Saviour to obtain this exemption, and to be delivered from the universal necessity and debt (debitum) of being subject to original sin. The person of Mary, in consequence of her origin from Adam, should have been subject to sin, but, being the new Eve who was to be the mother of the new Adam, she was, by the eternal counsel of God and by the merits of Christ, withdrawn from the general law of original sin. Her redemption was the very masterpiece of Christ's redeeming wisdom. He is a greater redeemer who pays the debt that it may not be incurred than he who pays after it has fallen on the debtor.
According to the teaching of the Orthodox Church (from the first centuries and up to our days), all men are subject to original sin - all, including also the Mother of God. And all have to be redeemed by the sacrifice of the Son of God. The Most Holy Virgin herself numbers herself among the saved, calling God her Saviour: "and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour" (Luke 1:47). Sacred Scripture knows only one man who did not partake of original sin - the God-Man Christ Jesus, Who was conceived in a supernatural manner - by the Holy Spirit.
http://www.stjohndc.org/Homilies/9609a.htm[/quote]
I am trying to do a study on the Eastern and Western approaches to Original sin, and from both sides I seem to be getting a whole lot of private theologians' opinions, but very few from the Churches, themselves. From what I have read from the Churches' theologies seem to compliment eachother, rather than conflict.
Thanks for the help,
Neal
isshinwhat said:I have heard many orthodox say that Jesus suffered from Original Sin. Neal
Adam's nature became fallen when he sinned. That nature was passed on to all his decendents, including the Virgin Mary. That is the nature that Christ took from her. One the cross He defeated the sin and death in that nature, since He is sinless, and infinite. He descended to Hades, but Satan had no power to hold Him, as He had committed no sin, and so He broke open the way to Heaven, and led the righteous from Hades to Pardise. If you haven't read St. Cyril of Alexandria's book on the Incarnation, I'm told it's incredible, and in print now. I haven't had a chance to find it yet but I want to. Maybe I'm misreading you, but it seems like you're making a criticism most directly of the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which seems to make it impossible for Christ to save us since then He is not assuming our fallen nature, but an unfallen nature.
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