Original and Ancestral Sin

[Discussdocs]

Hello all. I wanted to start this thread to generate
some helpful discussion on the topic of original/
ancestral sin. In the West original sin is typiclly
associated with inherited guilt. That is that all of
humanity that is born is given the guilt of Adam and
therefore worthy of the final judgment simply for
being born. However in the East the idea of ancestral
sin is more along the lines of each individual
receiving death as Adam's consequence and not the
final judgment.

I side more with the East on this issue in that I
think that the fall gave humanity death rather than
a "one way ticket to hell". If the older English
understanding of the word hell, which is death, was meant then
I would sign up for this statement. lol.

Are there others in this group that would like to
discuss this and the implications on other points
of theology? For example this may affect how one
views the reason for Christ's death for us. It also
may affect your view on man's response to the Christ's
atonement.

 

[Discussdocs]

I think when we look at passages like Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 we see Paul making mentioning of his view of what we call original sin or ancestral sin. He makes mention of death coming through Adam and then to all men. So I think the idea that of humanity is worthy of the final judgment for simply being born is not what is at view. I think the implications of this view lead us to understand that people's individual deeds warrant God's judgment and not simply being born.

 

[Discussdocs]

Another implication I would like to raise with the view of ancestral sin is how death came to be. It seems to me to be clear that Adam and his wife were at fault in bringing sin in. The church has had different ideas on who actually brought about the death however. For me it would seem that God brought death to humanity as a punishment for sin. However there are many who hold the view that God wasn't involved in the process of giving mankind death. Obviously it wasn't God's original plan to have death for humanity, but on account of their disobedience I see it as punishment. Other traditions would not. Would anyone like to discuss how death passed on to mankind, if it was God, incorporeal sin, the devil, someone else?

 

[Silverback]

Another implication I would like to raise with the view of ancestral sin is how death came to be. It seems to me to be clear that Adam and his wife were at fault in bringing sin in. The church has had different ideas on who actually brought about the death however. For me it would seem that God brought death to humanity as a punishment for sin. However there are many who hold the view that God wasn't involved in the process of giving mankind death. Obviously it wasn't God's original plan to have death for humanity, but on account of their disobedience I see it as punishment. Other traditions would not. Would anyone like to discuss how death passed on to mankind, if it was God, incorporeal sin, the devil, someone else?

Most of the reformers are on the side of original sin being accredited to all as guilt, and that the soul of humanity is corrupted beyond our ability to deal with it by sin (sinful nature of you will)

The doctrine of the reformers has been watered down over the centuries, as denominations have split off to create there own, which in most cases have also split.

Christ died to defeat death, which was not the original plan (although God new it would happen) he also died to atone for the sins of the world.

If sin was not inherited, humanity would not be destined to die, and would have no need for a savior.

it was not only death, and sin that resulted from Adams fall, but all of creation will die as well, sin is the cause of every problem in the world.

The corruption of our soul, is why God's elected those he would bring to faith in his son. Our corrupted soul cannot seek, or believe in God. If God did not elect some for salvation, Christ died for nothing.

Adams fall brought sin into the world, because of his sin we and all of creation will die. Christ defeated death, and paid our sin debt.

 

[eleos1954]

Another implication I would like to raise with the view of ancestral sin is how death came to be. It seems to me to be clear that Adam and his wife were at fault in bringing sin in. The church has had different ideas on who actually brought about the death however. For me it would seem that God brought death to humanity as a punishment for sin. However there are many who hold the view that God wasn't involved in the process of giving mankind death. Obviously it wasn't God's original plan to have death for humanity, but on account of their disobedience I see it as punishment. Other traditions would not. Would anyone like to discuss how death passed on to mankind, if it was God, incorporeal sin, the devil, someone else?

The wages of sin is death.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law.

Sin began in heaven with lucifer. When lucifer and the 1/3 rebelled against Gods law they were cast to the earth ... satan tempted Eve and Adam, they believed satan instead of God and sinned ... and then the sin nature entered the human race through them.

Punishment? No. Consequences ... experience of harmful effects of what happens when one sins.

We have a loving God ... so much so ... He died for us.

God having foreknowledge knew man would fall. The plan of salvation was in place before creation of the earth took place.

Gods foreknowledge - He knows who and what the choices will be, but he does not interfere with the choices made.

It's about love and freewill.

Freewill - Obviously there was/is freewill in heaven, lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels chose to rebel. Adam & Eve had choice, we have choice. God created all His intelligent beings with freewill.

Love - You can't have true love without freewill. No one can force someone to love someone. God knows that ... we know that.

 

[Discussdocs]

Most of the reformers are on the side of original sin being accredited to all as guilt, and that the soul of humanity is corrupted beyond our ability to deal with it by sin (sinful nature of you will)

The doctrine of the reformers has been watered down over the centuries, as denominations have split off to create there own, which in most cases have also split.

Christ died to defeat death, which was not the original plan (although God new it would happen) he also died to atone for the sins of the world.

If sin was not inherited, humanity would not be destined to die, and would have no need for a savior.

it was not only death, and sin that resulted from Adams fall, but all of creation will die as well, sin is the cause of every problem in the world.

The corruption of our soul, is why God's elected those he would bring to faith in his son. Our corrupted soul cannot seek, or believe in God. If God did not elect some for salvation, Christ died for nothing.

Adams fall brought sin into the world, because of his sin we and all of creation will die. Christ defeated death, and paid our sin debt.

I agree that the world was corrupted along with man. However I don't stand with the reformers in their view on guilt leading to hell/lake of fire/final judgment. Neither do I agree with them on deterministic election. For me because Christ died for death, redemption of the world, and to fulfill God's prerequisite for the Kingdom I believe Christ did accomplish what He desired outside of deterministic election. When looking at Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, which I have been taught as key texts to prove that God sends people to Hell based on Adam's sin, these seem to talk about death and makes no mention of the final judgment. Indeed Paul says that all will be present before Christ's judgment and receive the what they deserve based on what they have done (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:4-11). So if there isn't anywhere in Scripture that teaches that all men deserve to go to Hell for simply being born I don't think we should hold to it. If we are all going to be judged on the basis of our works then it would seem that the unrepentant are those who go to the fire and Christ was successful in that He resurrected all men on the final day to face the judgement.

 

[Discussdocs]

The wages of sin is death.

What is sin? Transgression of the Law.

Sin began in heaven with lucifer. When lucifer and the 1/3 rebelled against Gods law they were cast to the earth ... satan tempted Eve and Adam, they believed satan instead of God and sinned ... and then the sin nature entered the human race through them.

Punishment? No. Consequences ... experience of harmful effects of what happens when one sins.

We have a loving God ... so much so ... He died for us.

God having foreknowledge knew man would fall. The plan of salvation was in place before creation of the earth took place.

Gods foreknowledge - He knows who and what the choices will be, but he does not interfere with the choices made.

It's about love and freewill.

Freewill - Obviously there was/is freewill in heaven, lucifer and the 1/3 of the angels chose to rebel. Adam & Eve had choice, we have choice. God created all His intelligent beings with freewill.

Love - You can't have true love without freewill. No one can force someone to love someone. God knows that ... we know that.

I understand a lot of Christians understand that God did not bring death to man as a punishment. I am just then confused on who then did bring death. Yes the man and the woman were responsible, but they neither had the desire nor the ability to change their make up to make them die. Then unless God gave authority to Satan or something else to change man's composition and the world for that matter to make them die, then we still see that it was God's will for punishment for sin to be death. I think at least. I would be interested in someone explaining how death came upon the race as sin entered in. God is love for sure, but there are plenty examples when in anger upon man's disobedience Go decided to harm certain people.

 

[Silverback]

I agree that the world was corrupted along with man. However I don't stand with the reformers in their view on guilt leading to hell/lake of fire/final judgment. Neither do I agree with them on deterministic election. For me because Christ died for death, redemption of the world, and to fulfill God's prerequisite for the Kingdom I believe Christ did accomplish what He desired outside of deterministic election. When looking at Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, which I have been taught as key texts to prove that God sends people to Hell based on Adam's sin, these seem to talk about death and makes no mention of the final judgment. Indeed Paul says that all will be present before Christ's judgment and receive the what they deserve based on what they have done (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:4-11). So if there isn't anywhere in Scripture that teaches that all men deserve to go to Hell for simply being born I don't think we should hold to it. If we are all going to be judged on the basis of our works then it would seem that the unrepentant are those who go to the fire and Christ was successful in that He resurrected all men on the final day to face the judgement.

The Scriptures say nothing concerning an election to damnation. Our body, mind, and soul are totally depraved, and corrupted by sin, both the sin we inherited from Adam, and our own sin. God before the foundation of the world chose who he would bring through faith, to salvation. This is all Gods work, our role is passive. No one has ever made a decision to believe, or, be saved. God's election is unconditional, and not based on anything special about the person. However, it is not a military muster either where every third person is chosen. People believe because they were chosen to believe, not believing and then choosing God...that's just works righteousness.

Everyone justly deserves God's wrath, condemnation, and punishment, all of us. Because God is Gracious, some people receive his mercy, others are passed by, and receive his justice, but no one receives injustice.

 

[Not David]

We don't inherit the Sin of Adam but his consequences. Everyone is responsible for his/her own sins.

 

[Discussdocs]

The Scriptures say nothing concerning an election to damnation. Our body, mind, and soul are totally depraved, and corrupted by sin, both the sin we inherited from Adam, and our own sin. God before the foundation of the world chose who he would bring through faith, to salvation. This is all Gods work, our role is passive. No one has ever made a decision to believe, or, be saved. God's election is unconditional, and not based on anything special about the person. However, it is not a military muster either where every third person is chosen. People believe because they were chosen to believe, not believing and then choosing God...that's just works righteousness.

Everyone justly deserves God's wrath, condemnation, and punishment, all of us. Because God is Gracious, some people receive his mercy, others are passed by, and receive his justice, but no one receives injustice.

I understand both your belief in the deterministic election and all people justly deserving God's wrath for no reason other than being born, but there seems be no mention of these in the texts. Also works based salvation is believing that our good deeds some how convince God to save us, from something. You say that something is lake of fire, I say death. Man's response to God whether you believe it is faith or faithfulness/works is not what saves them. God saves through His grace in Jesus. If you say salvation is by faith then you would be the one to believe in works based salvation, I think. Determinism, if you want to believe in that, doesn't seem to make sense in all of God's commands for people to repent and be faithful.

Anyhow the point of this post is more to discuss how we can know what original sin did to us. I would like to discuss this from Scripture or even tradition, but I would find it more helpful if it was a little older than from the 17th century.

 

[Discussdocs]

We don't inherit the Sin of Adam but his consequences. Everyone is responsible for his/her own sins.

This is what I see in Scripture. For me its a lack of the view being in the text at all. Romans 5 and 1 Corinthians 15 are a big one for me. How would you argue this from Scripture?

 

[Not David]

12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned.

I don't think this verse ever says we inherit the guilt of the one man's sin, the Eastern view is shown in that verse.

 

[eleos1954]

I understand a lot of Christians understand that God did not bring death to man as a punishment. I am just then confused on who then did bring death. Yes the man and the woman were responsible, but they neither had the desire nor the ability to change their make up to make them die. Then unless God gave authority to Satan or something else to change man's composition and the world for that matter to make them die, then we still see that it was God's will for punishment for sin to be death. I think at least. I would be interested in someone explaining how death came upon the race as sin entered in. God is love for sure, but there are plenty examples when in anger upon man's disobedience Go decided to harm certain people.

Revelation 4

11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory, honor, and power, because you created all things; they came into existence and were created because of your will."

What is His will?

That all live in perfect harmony, willingly out of love, not out of fear.

What provides perfect harmony ... His laws and His creations willingly abiding by them 100% of the time.

His laws ... are laws of love ... they are who He is (His perfect character)

Romans 7

God’s Law Is Holy

7What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the law. For I would not have been aware of coveting if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8But sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead.

9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10So I discovered that the very commandment that was meant to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing its opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through the commandment put me to death.

12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good.

We are free to love and are free when we do love.

Love, willingly, by choice produces life without is death.

Choose love (life) ... choose not to love (death)

The two are mutually exclusive and can not co-exist ... not on earth ...not in heaven.

The greatest of these is LOVE.

 

[bcbsr]

Hello all. I wanted to start this thread to generate
some helpful discussion on the topic of original/
ancestral sin. In the West original sin is typiclly
associated with inherited guilt. That is that all of
humanity that is born is given the guilt of Adam and
therefore worthy of the final judgment simply for
being born. However in the East the idea of ancestral
sin is more along the lines of each individual
receiving death as Adam's consequence and not the
final judgment.

I side more with the East on this issue in that I
think that the fall gave humanity death rather than
a "one way ticket to hell". If the older English
understanding of the word hell, which is death, was meant then
I would sign up for this statement. lol.

Are there others in this group that would like to
discuss this and the implications on other points
of theology? For example this may affect how one
views the reason for Christ's death for us. It also
may affect your view on man's response to the Christ's
atonement.

East/West? How is it that I'm in the West yet side with your Eastern Viewpoint? It's almost as if theology actually has no geographic boundaries - imagine that!