Looking for others perspectives and explanations for this ideology.
Are you for or against ? Reasons why ? Thanks/
Are you for or against ? Reasons why ? Thanks/
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Open Theism
- Thread starter msmorality
- Start date
I personally have trouble reconciling predestination with the concept of bargaining with God. This view seems to be at odds with itself. Ether every thing is predestined or it's not.
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cupid dave
Guest
Even the best Jewish scholars have finally realized that this openess is essential to understanding sripture.
The Rabbi and their closed system is in direct opposition with the best scholars today who say that commentary is the device which elucidates the bible meanings.
But the Christians have closed there doors to new ideas and perspectives, too.
These established organizations tend like all such organizations to defend the Status Que and fight to keep the same social paradigm in place.
They are also aware of the changes that could redirect their contributors and erode their authoritative opinions and powern their communities.
These are not small temptations.
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Watchman on the Wall
Guest
Openness is what allows the Spirit of Truth to lead us into truth. If our hearts are closed to new revelations, and we think we know all the truth we need to know, then the Holy Spirit will not be able to work in our hearts due to our self-imposed blindness.
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cupid dave
Guest
LOL
If one does notearn from History, he is predestined to repeat it:
Rev. 17:3 So he carried me away (in the spirit of thought), into the wilderness (of my imagination) and I saw (as if) a woman, (those who have Institutionalized a system of sexual seduction into a failed matrimony), sit upon a scarlet coloured beast (of a brazen and corrupt sexually misdirected economic system: [Dan 3:1-5]),...
[FONT='Verdana','rif']
...full of names of (Pagan) blasphemy, having seven heads:
(which existed in:
(1) Egypt,
(2) Assyria,
(3) Babylon,
(4) Persia/Mede,
(5) Greece,
(6) Rome
(7) the whole of Western Culture to follow)
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']
having ten horns upon these seven heads
(1. Undivided Empire: Diocletian: capital Rome: [305 AD],
2. Western Roman Empire: (Romulus Augustus): [to 476 AD
3. Eastern Roman: Byzantine Empire, [1453 AD
4. Charlemagne, [800 - 1000 AD]
5. Holy Roman Empire, [1200 AD-1492 AD][/
6. Italy, [Renaissance, 16th century]
7. Spain, [17th century]
8. France, [18th-19th Century]
9. Britain, [19th-20th century]
10. Nazi Germany, [20th century
11). (America next?)
]
1 Peter 4:3
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry
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glen55
Guest
They seem to dance around the issue of who created everything, making evil some abstract invention outside of Gods will , and take many passages that are relative and make absolute doctrine from them. In the process making Gods will at the mercy of the god of this world and mans.
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cupid dave
Guest
The major shortcoming for the Jews was their inability to define G_d and insist that "he" is ineffable, or to complex to explain in words.
This fit nicely into the social paradigm where certain leaders and rabbi could still insist they nevertheless, knew all about this indiscribable entity.
Hence they built a ritual and prefunctory parade of rites and services that offered sacrifices (from the people), presented to the benefactors of such a system, instead of mercy.
Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
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3 Angels Messages
Well-Known Member
Have I studied into it? Yes...
The theology is extremely dangerous, and without getting into the specific details, it completely negatively affects salvation, the cross, the atonement, sin, free choice, etc, and really also incorporates panentheistic ideas ultimately, while also bringing GOD downward to man's understanding, and elevating man upward at the same time.
Whether I [or anyone really] am against it or not, is really not relevant to the issue, as what hath GOD said, and as scripture itself does not teach it, and is directly counter to it, there can be only one source for it - the father of lies - satan [and just as he came to Christ Jesus in the wilderness temptations [mis]quoting and [mis]representing scripture, this aberant theology does the same, and so from every source promoting it].
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Isaiah 46:9
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:10
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cupid dave
Guest
.
In 32AD it was "extremely dangerous," to accept blindly the accusations and attacks on Jesus simply because the leaders of the accepted theology insisted thatr trhey knew it all.
They missed the point of all the miracles and acts of Jesus, and could not identify him as their own Elijah, returned in 32AD.
They had a theology that taught them to expect Elijah at a Passover when he would toast the Blessing and use the fifth wine cup, the Elijah Cup, on the table.
Those Jews and the Christians who later over took a Rome still miss the point:
Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that this "cup" be taken from them.
Both had miraculous births
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd.
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter
In 32AD it was "extremely dangerous," to accept blindly the accusations and attacks on Jesus simply because the leaders of the accepted theology insisted thatr trhey knew it all.
They missed the point of all the miracles and acts of Jesus, and could not identify him as their own Elijah, returned in 32AD.
They had a theology that taught them to expect Elijah at a Passover when he would toast the Blessing and use the fifth wine cup, the Elijah Cup, on the table.
Those Jews and the Christians who later over took a Rome still miss the point:
Both Elijah and Jesus raised the dead.
Both Elijah and Jesus were immortal
Both Elijah and Jesus disappeared from the foot of a mountain.
Both Elijah and Jesus ascended into Heaven before witnesses
Both Elijah and Jesus troubled Israel.
Both Elijah and Jesus were hunted down by the Jewish authorities.
Both Elijah and Jesus hid in a cave/tomb.
Both Elijah and Jesus pondered in the wilderness 40 days
Both Elijah and Jesus walked on the water.
Both wrote letters to people on Earth after they had ascended.
Both appointed a successor, Elisha by Elijah, and Peter, by Christ.Both were hunted by the Jewish authorities
Both gave a successor the power to raise the dead.
Both gave a successor a symbolic authority, the cloak to one, the keys to the other.
Both asked that this "cup" be taken from them.
Both had miraculous births
Both multiplied the meal for many people they feed in the crowd.
Both destroyed the pagan worshippers and priests, one Baal, the other, the Pantheon of Rome.
Both were promised faithfulness three times, Elisha in the former and Peter, in the latter
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Huram Abi
Guest
That's patently and demonstrably false.
Rabbi Elijah, the Vilna Gaon (Lithuania, 1720-1797), was the first to propose that Elijah's cup is the fifth cup: "When Elijah comes, the doubt [whether there are four cups or five] will be resolved. Therefore, we pour a fifth cup, because of the doubt, but do not drink from it."
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As far as I understand it, this ideology allows for God to chose to not know everything that we will chose . Thus, everything that happens is not decreed by God. While certain things are, not everything is in God's control. In regards to the future there are many possibilities, we have the ability change certain events. Since God has chosen to allowed many different outcomes..
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Huram Abi
Guest
I see. So He sets the boundaries regarding what could happen, so all possible outcomes are still dependent on the parameters he chooses, but then allows the chips to fall where they may, so to speak?
I guess that reminds me of those fantasy books where you get so far and then you get to make the decision:
Battle ogre: turn to page 117
Run across bridge: turn to page 60
There is a finite set of outcomes, but a large number of paths to arrive at the same destination.
I guess that reminds me of those fantasy books where you get so far and then you get to make the decision:
Battle ogre: turn to page 117
Run across bridge: turn to page 60
There is a finite set of outcomes, but a large number of paths to arrive at the same destination.
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cupid dave
Guest
What is false patently, is for a Jewish person to assume the fifth cup was npt a long tradition centered upon awaiting the Elijah in ordwer that he would resolve the matter of that fifth cup.
As a Jew, one would be intellectually dishonest to ignore that the religious leaders had long debated whether the fifth cup ought exist, and whether it ought be drank or discarded.
They had set aside this matter in order that it would be resplved by the Elijah, when he returned.
That Jesus did, now called the Eucharist.
Exodus 6:8 contains the promise of the land sworn to the Patriarchs.
The debate among the early rabbis was whether the promise of the land was part of redemption that should be symbolized by a fifth cup of wine or whether the promise was prophecy for which no wine was needed.
The majority view was that a fifth cup of wine was not needed; the minority view was that the fifth cup should be consumed.
To reach a temporary compromise, a cup of wine, representing the possible fifth cup, was set upon the seder table.
It was not blessed nor was it consumed.
And was indeed considered to be reserved for a guest whose presence was anticipated but uncertain, (ie, Elijah).
http://www.centralsynagogue.org/worship/sermons/display.php?id=1273
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elopez
Well-Known Member
Personally I am against the idea. As a theological concept open theism is inconsistent as it neglects the sheer truth that God is triune in nature and operates as such.
God does not solely exist within time or temporally as open theists would say. If that is the case, then God cannot possibly be omnipresent, since to be omnipresent God would not only exist in time (as Christ and the Holy Spirit) but outside of time (as God the Father) as well.
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cupid dave
Guest
This is merely the first direct statement you can find by a Jew, who is merely telling you about the long standing tradition of awaiting Elijah for this specific dilemma concerning the ancient issue of 4 or 5 cups.
The issue of the fifth cup or no fifth cup was set aside until ELijah, and hence, the issue became symbolized by the cup itself.
The issue however is mentioned in the Talmud, long beofre 1720.
Elijah's Cup (koso shel Eliyahu)
In the Talmudic literature, Elijah would visit rabbis to help solve particularly difficult legal problems. Malachi had cited Elijah as the harbinger of the eschaton.
Thus, when confronted with reconciling impossibly conflicting laws or rituals, the rabbis would set aside any decision until Elijah comes.[32]
One such decision was whether the Passover seder required four or five cups of wine.
See Elijah's cup on this link:</SPAN>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah#Elijah.
E2.80.99s_Cup_.28koso_shel_Eliyahu.29
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Huram Abi
Guest
The question isn't if Elijah is a part of the fifth cup tradition, but when it was first suggested that he could be the one to settle the dispute.
You make the bare assertion that Elijah is attached to the question of the fifth cup from the time before Jesus.
It is well demonstrated that Elijah's role in the tradition came much, much later.
You also make the bare assertion that the passover cup that Jesus drank from (the 3rd cup, btw) is the 5th cup, simply because your modus operandi is to invent evidence that will demonstrate Jesus to be Elijah.
Since Jesus did not settle the dispute once and for all as Elijah is expected to, we know he cannot be Elijah.
Please, listen and learn: The dispute over 4 or 5 cups is a long tradition. The idea that Elijah will come and resolve this dispute is not.
The cup of Eliyahu originated with the Ashkenazic community.
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cupid dave
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How else do we discover the Truth, except through peer reviews and discussion?
Matt18:20
For where two (people) or (even) three (whole different denominational congregations?) are gathered together in my name (Truth), there am I, (the son of Reality), in the midst of them.
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I haven't gotten that far into it, but I can see how it is helpful for those who question. " Why did God allow for certain tragic events ?".
The simple is answer is most overlooked. Perhaps, open theism makes it more complicated than need be.
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