[open]Practice what you preach?

Upon_This_Rock said:

I agree with the sentiment behind that quote. Christians who aren't "little Christs" do the Church more harm than anything else known to humans.

However, what it means to be a Christian is a question with various answers. A conservative Christian would say that conserving religious tradition, teaching, and practice is the key to being like Christ, while I would say the exact opposite.

Pat Robertson would agree with the above quote because he believes that liberal Christianity leads people to Atheism and John Shelby Spong would agree with that statement because he believes that conservative Christianity makes people reject Christianity altogether.

When you think about it, this is a very vague quote because I'm sure that every Christian agrees with it regardless of what end of the left-right spectrum he or she is on.

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I don't think that the quote really has much to do with the conservative/liberal dynamic in the church. Personally, I think that most of us (liberal, conservative, moderate, fundamentalist, etc....) tend to be somewhat two-faced in the way we live out our faith. Although it can be hard to characterize what exactly "liberal Christians" or "Conservative Christians" believe, I think it's true in both cases that if they lived out completely what they profess, then each would be an asset to the Kingdom and would attract far more people than they would deter. The problem is that all of us to think of our beliefs in terms of the ideal, but being imperfect, we don't live this ideal. Admittedly, there are a lot of things that liberal Christians include in their "ideal" that I disagree with. By the same token, there are a lot of fundamentalist beliefs that I disagree with. But, in each case, if they were to live everything they believe, then that would be an improvement.

I don't say this as a judgment. I, too, find that many of my beliefs I fail to live out in every aspect of my life. I have come to the conclusion that when my beliefs and my actions don't line up, it is because I don't trust God completely, at least not the God in whom I profess to believe. And the solution to my "hypocrisy" is to seek to know God better.

And, with this in mind, I think that if we all sincerely sought to live our beliefs, all of the distinctions (liberal, conservative, fundie, etc) would begin to disappear. Now, this assumes that there is only one God (not a liberal God, a conservative God, etc). If there is only one God (who is the ultimate Good), and the way to overcome the inconsistency between our beliefs and our actions is to seek out God, then in the process we will all come to know the True God, who is neither liberal, nor conservative, nor moderate, nor Evangelical, nor fundamentalist, nor Catholic, nor Protestant.

So, it seems like one conclusion could be that the very fact that we seem so drawn to these distinctions is a result of the fact that most of us, myself included, fail to live out our faith.

B®ent;34343189 said:

As you said, stop pointing the finger at one group of Christians and examine our own lives. That is the point of the statement, I believe.

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I read somewhere- every time I point my finger, three others point right back at me...

none is worthy, not one.

Abiel-Areli said:

none is worthy, not one.

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(Abiel, I'm not intending to argue with you here, but rather to expand upon your excellent observation. )

That is absolutely true, but also at the same time, and in a way, absolutely false.

We are all sinners, no exceptions. But at the same time, we (all of us who follow Christ) are also saints. We have no worthiness of our own, but Christ's worthiness, which is our own according to the promise, suffices.

Romans 4:13-25 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)Copyright © 1999, 2000, 2002, 2003 by Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville Tennessee. All rights reserved.

The Promise Granted through Faith

13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world was not through the law, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 If those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made empty and the promise is canceled. 15 For the law produces wrath; but where there is no law, there is no transgression. 16 This is why the promise is by faith, so that it may be according to grace, to guarantee it to all the descendants —not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of Abraham's faith. He is the father of us all 17 in God's sight. As it is written: I have made you the father of many nations. He believed in God, who gives life to the dead and calls things into existence that do not exist. 18 Against hope, with hope he believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what had been spoken: So will your descendants be. 19 He considered his own body to be already dead (since he was about a hundred years old ), and the deadness of Sarah's womb, without weakening in the faith. 20 He did not waver in unbelief at God's promise, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 because he was fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 Therefore, it was credited to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was credited to him was not written for Abraham alone, 24 but also for us. It will be credited to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

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"A Christian is not someone who has no sin or feels no sin; he is someone to whom, because of his faith in Christ (propter fidem), God does not impute his sins. This doctrine brings firm consolation to troubled consciences amid genuine terrors. It is not in vain, therefore, that so often and so diligently we inculcate the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins and of the imputation of righteousness for Christ's sake, as well as the doctrine that a Christian does not have anything to do with the Law and sin, especially in a time of temptation . . . . Therefore when the Law accuses and sins troubles, he looks to Christ; and when he has taken hold of Him by faith, he has present with him the Victor over the Law, sin, death, and the devil - the Victor whose rule over all these prevents them from harming him."

-- Martin Luther, Luther's Works, 26, 133.

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You should have stopped at "we are all worthy". Regardless of who beleives in Jesus, we are all made worthy.

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:

You should have stopped at "we are all worthy". Regardless of who beleives in Jesus, we are all made worthy.

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I have three questions for you, Flanders.

1.) How do you define 'worthy'?
2.) Do you believe we deserve God's Mercy?
3.) Who is 'all'?

Izdaari said:

We're not going to agree on that one, Flan. I'm going to have to go with what Paul and Luther wrote.

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They were just men, just like me.

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:

They were just men, just like me.

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So they were. But I believe what they say in this case -- not because they're authorities, but because it makes sense to me. No diss to the Flan man at all -- I believe you on lotsa other stuff.