Open-minded agnostic seeker

Dirk1540 said:

Christians who reject eternal torment are not liberal Christians! Read the book 'The Fire That Consumes' by Edward William Fudge...pretty far from a liberal 'Feel good' argument!!

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I'll try to find it and give it a once over. I'm wondering though why do you have to reject it if you're a christian? Why Would you be frightened? I do understand the necessities of learning about teaching, and preaching "Hell". I was a (Until I had an I guess you could call it change of heart) Southern Baptist fire and Brimstone preaching, hand waving, jump the pew, Christian. I was saved in that church. 14 years later in my room, Broken and down to nothing I was forgiven and received the Holy spirit so I ask you again, why do you do these things?

Steven Wood said:

I'll try to find it and give it a once over. I'm wondering though why do you have to reject it if you're a christian? Why Would you be frightened? I do understand the necessities of learning about teaching, and preaching "Hell". I was a (Until I had an I guess you could call it change of heart) Southern Baptist fire and Brimstone preaching, hand waving, jump the pew, Christian. I was saved in that church. 14 years later in my room, Broken and down to nothing I was forgiven and received the Holy spirit so I ask you again, why do you do these things?

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For the record my exclamation points were meant to inflect how great I think the book is, and how great I think it is that there would not be eternal torment...not meant to inflect antagonism. I really do try hard to not say things for sake of sugar coating, until I read that book I never even knew that there was a case to be made (I admit at least a case to be made as far as I see it) for annihilation, believe me I spent plenty of uncomfortable conversations with people about eternal hell (when I thought that way). Of course like anything I could be wrong but I'd be curious to know what you think of the book if you do wind up checking it out. Me and you are probably more alike then it seems I definitely get dumbfounded at a lot of liberal stances, once when I was searching for a study Bible in a Christian book store a female employee wound up telling me that she was a Christian who did not believe in the foolishness of the miracles. I didn't understand the point of holding the title of Christian if that were the case?? It made zero sense. I think she'd be more accurate to say that she liked Jesus but not claim to be Christian.

Rational Inquirer said:

So if you're not one of those who happens to be chosen by God to have their hearts "softened," you get eternal suffering instead of eternal bliss? That doesn't seem any more reasonable.

I'm also very skeptical that a person can look at the world's religions and be able to ascertain which one is the correct one, if indeed there is a correct one. For one thing, people around the world have vastly different backgrounds from which they approach the question, with many being exposed exclusively or nearly exclusively to one religion.

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We are told that God's grace will be shown to us all and honestly (although it can be argued for many things) the rate of technology and how information can be shared, accessed, and spread so easily and so quickly in the last few years it's not hard to believe. And in all truth anyone who wants to truly take the time to put 2 and 2 together, if it's really important to them. with some soul searching and hard looking, prepared to accept the truth no matter what it is, not willing to be corrupted by any person's opinion. Unfortunately with the freedom of choice comes the consequences also. Like I tell my children there's a consequence for every decision you make whether it's good or bad. Man as a race has not only been told but has been given chance after chance since creation and in our vast intelligence has not only gone against but has said there is no God and even put ourselves in his place. I won't really get into semantics or debate out of respect for others faith. I am not (like some other christians) a person who impresses my faith and beliefs upon others. If people come to me and ask or if they search for answers to questions then I am more than happy try to answer but I will not bash my Bible on their head lol. In my belief all will hear the word of the Lord to some it will leave a lasting impression, to some it will raise a question and sooner or later in their life they'll get the answer to it, these last 2 examples are God's chosen, the ones whose hearts have been "softened" . The last people are the ones who choose to ignore the word of the Lord, Whose hearts are hard. Believe it or not though you say people around the world have vastly different backgrounds they can really all be traced back to a general area in a certain historic timeline and there's certain reasons a group or groups of peoples believe the way they do.

Rational Inquirer said:

Thank you for your in-depth replies. But my concerns remain:

1. I find it hard to believe that there is really a hell at all, and that anyone deserves to go there. How can our actions during this short lifetime warrant an eternity of suffering? I don't feel that I've done anything that makes me deserving of eternal suffering, and I'm extremely skeptical that anyone else has either, including Hitler. Eternity is a long time. This doctrine makes it seem that God lacks a sense of perspective.

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What is meant by "hell" depends on who you ask. Just for the sake of offering a different perspective, here's a quote from the 7th century theologian St. Isaac the Syrian,

"I also maintain that those who are punished in Hell are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Hell: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability."

In the theology of Isaac and other Eastern theologians the difference between "Heaven" and "Hell" isn't location, they are in fact the same "place", it is instead our own position or relationship with God that is different. God grants His love impartially to all, the love of God is a source of incomprehensible joy for the righteous, but is a source of absolute torment for the wicked--the torment is self-inflicted, they themselves are tormented by their own remorse, what they had done and how they had lived in defiance of God's loving goodness.

This is the view still common among Eastern Orthodox Christians today, Wikipedia has this in their article on different Christian views of Hell,

"The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that heaven and hell are relations to or experiences of God's just and loving presence There is no created place of divine absence, nor is hell an ontological separation from God. One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are dimensions of God's intensifying presence, as this presence is experienced either as torment or as paradise depending on the spiritual state of a person dwelling with God. For one who hates God and by extension hates himself as God's image-bearer, to be encompassed by the divine presence could only result in unspeakable anguish."

2. It seems utterly unjust that people would be condemned to hell for choosing--or being born into--the "wrong" religion. How are we to know which is the "right" one. It's definitely not obvious to me, and I've read a considerable amount about all of the world's major religions, Christianity included. Christianity isn't even the religion that personally appeals to me the most. Why should I be punished for human error? Was I not created human, and therefore prone to error? How is that my fault?

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Here's the thing, this view here of having to be fortunate enough to find the right religion in order to avoid eternal torment in hell is a view arguably most Christians would agree as being unjust and wrong and doesn't reflect the opinion of most Christians on the subject.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

What is meant by "hell" depends on who you ask. Just for the sake of offering a different perspective, here's a quote from the 7th century theologian St. Isaac the Syrian,

"I also maintain that those who are punished in Hell are scourged by the scourge of love. For what is so bitter and vehement as the punishment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is sharper than any torment that can be. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God. Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all. The power of love works in two ways: it torments those who have played the fool, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend; but it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties. Thus I say that this is the torment of Hell: bitter regret. But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability."

In the theology of Isaac and other Eastern theologians the difference between "Heaven" and "Hell" isn't location, they are in fact the same "place", it is instead our own position or relationship with God that is different. God grants His love impartially to all, the love of God is a source of incomprehensible joy for the righteous, but is a source of absolute torment for the wicked--the torment is self-inflicted, they themselves are tormented by their own remorse, what they had done and how they had lived in defiance of God's loving goodness.

This is the view still common among Eastern Orthodox Christians today, Wikipedia has this in their article on different Christian views of Hell,

"The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that heaven and hell are relations to or experiences of God's just and loving presence There is no created place of divine absence, nor is hell an ontological separation from God. One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are dimensions of God's intensifying presence, as this presence is experienced either as torment or as paradise depending on the spiritual state of a person dwelling with God. For one who hates God and by extension hates himself as God's image-bearer, to be encompassed by the divine presence could only result in unspeakable anguish."



Here's the thing, this view here of having to be fortunate enough to find the right religion in order to avoid eternal torment in hell is a view arguably most Christians would agree as being unjust and wrong and doesn't reflect the opinion of most Christians on the subject.

-CryptoLutheran

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I maintain one fact that is not arguable (by any Christians). That there has only been one infallible Man That has ever been and ever will be on this earth ever. And since he made no sect, division, or denomination whilst he was on this earth any person held in any regard at all will admit that any squabbling between churches of this world is simply that. To say that means this. every denomination has added so dogma it really is a shame. it no wonder that Jesus says not only that many will be called and few will be chosen but he goes on to say that though they will say (paraphrasing) Lord, Lord I cast out demons and did many works and I'll say I never knew you depart from me. The Lord separated the light from the darkness. He saw that the light was GOOD. Jesus tells us that people will be cast into the outer darkness. we're told everything that need to know through the wisdom of the Holy spirit. Hell is separation from God. The outer darkness is being apart from everything good in it's simplest form and in the presence of evil. Every other word written on it whether dogma or just theory is really just opinion of man and id flawed and that's what gets us in trouble.

Rational Inquirer said:

2. It seems utterly unjust that people would be condemned to hell for choosing--or being born into--the "wrong" religion. How are we to know which is the "right" one. It's definitely not obvious to me, and I've read a considerable amount about all of the world's major religions, Christianity included. Christianity isn't even the religion that personally appeals to me the most. Why should I be punished for human error? Was I not created human, and therefore prone to error? How is that my fault?

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I think I've said it before. I've shared this same outlook and had this same problem. I had the argument "What kind of loving an just God would or even could send billions of his creation let alone his so called children to agony for something as seemingly insignificant as that"? I've wrestled with this and a couple of other pretty big problems and I think there are a ton of other people out there that think the same exact way. The thing is Ever question that you have, every comment that I see that you've written isn't new. I've thought almost all of them myself and all of them were answered. (I don't know about the one appealing to me most. I think other than atheist it was just Christianity though I researched all the major and TONS of minor). I don't think this is the setting to get into every aspect but I'd love to talk with you if you'd want to. I can tell you though that what you hear from me will be in depth. I won't candy coat anything (that's why It can't be in open forum) and before you think it may be hellfire and brimstone for non-believers and badmouthing other religions ( I don't badmouth anyone). I will tell you how I came to know the Lord, The answers to my questions, why churches make more atheists than Christians, and why you'll have a very hard time finding Christianity in ANY church nowadays.

Steven Wood said:

Hell is separation from God.

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That's often how the West has spoken of Hell, it's not however how the East has done so. Many Orthodox will quite rightly point out that God, being omnipresent, means that there is simply no way to ever be truly separate from God, God is present everywhere. Indeed, we read the Psalmist say, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in She'ol, You are there." (Psalm 139:7-8).

The outer darkness is being apart from everything good in it's simplest form and in the presence of evil. Every other word written on it whether dogma or just theory is really just opinion of man and id flawed and that's what gets us in trouble.

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But in saying these things you too are providing your own opinions and theories. That's not wrong, but it does seem to be going against the point you are wanting to make here.

-CryptoLutheran

Is God loving? Is God all-powerful? If he is both, why would he sentence good people to eternal suffering, just because they were born into the wrong religion, or chose the wrong beliefs? Even if they had led a life more virtuous and compassionate than any Christian that has ever lived?

We are mere humans, I doubt anybody here would deny that we are flawed creatures. How are we to know which religion, if any, is correct? No matter how intelligent, virtuous and good we are? We're fallible. I might be seeking God through Christ, and not manage to find Him before I die. Am I then condemned to hell?

Is God loving or not? Is He all-powerful or not? It seems an impossible paradox to me.

godshapedhole said:

Is God loving? Is God all-powerful? If he is both, why would he sentence good people to eternal suffering, just because they were born into the wrong religion, or chose the wrong beliefs? Even if they had led a life more virtuous and compassionate than any Christian that has ever lived?

We are mere humans, I doubt anybody here would deny that we are flawed creatures. How are we to know which religion, if any, is correct? No matter how intelligent, virtuous and good we are? We're fallible. I might be seeking God through Christ, and not manage to find Him before I die. Am I then condemned to hell?

Is God loving or not? Is He all-powerful or not? It seems an impossible paradox to me.

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You are being very logical and are asking very good questions.

God is so Loving that He is the epitome of total unselfishness, always doing stuff for the sake of others.

God is also all-powerful and can do anything that can be done, but there are things that are impossible to do by definition like: Create a being that has always existed and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us (a shotgun wedding) since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.



Since God is “Love” and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help to fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.

Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy, Love. AND Jesus has taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).

If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.

Rational Inquirer said:

No one here has answered my real question: how is it fair that only the people who happen to choose the right religion (by luck, as far as I can tell) get to go to heaven?

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Everyone's got his covenant ever since Noah. Each covenant contains God's grace through Christ. As time goes by, a human can't keep to the covenant which he belongs. Thus he personally needs a better covenant with a better term of salvation. In that case, it relies on human efforts to get that salvation message to convey and it relies on whether the person who needs a better covenant to accept the new terms in the new covenant. God has already done His part by making a self sacrifice to make the new covenant legitimate for anyone to accept or to reject.

What is your suggestion other than this?

godshapedhole said:

Is God loving? Is God all-powerful? If he is both, why would he sentence good people to eternal suffering, just because they were born into the wrong religion, or chose the wrong beliefs? Even if they had led a life more virtuous and compassionate than any Christian that has ever lived?

We are mere humans, I doubt anybody here would deny that we are flawed creatures. How are we to know which religion, if any, is correct? No matter how intelligent, virtuous and good we are? We're fallible. I might be seeking God through Christ, and not manage to find Him before I die. Am I then condemned to hell?

Is God loving or not? Is He all-powerful or not? It seems an impossible paradox to me.

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What is your suggestion to God, after reading the below?

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That ties to the question that whether the Bible indicates that Jesus is an optional choice.

Logically, what makes a message (a religion) a necessity to follow instead of an option is that the message is a warning about an extremely bad consequence.

If it's not because of this extremely bad consequence, you don't need God, you don't need Jesus, you don't need a religion at all. Just live whichever way you like the rest of your life, then it will all be done!

So put it the reversed way, if Jesus is not optional it implies that a bad consequence must have made Him (the salvation message from God) a necessity to follow.

Now why an immortal soul is needed in God's design perspective? Once a human died, his body will decay. Then no one ever knows who he is, not even the angels. Only God knows. "Only God knows" however won't be a valid open witnessing for his existence. A more permanent ID is needed by each human as a witnessing to show (say, to the angels) that he is the he from the beginning till the end.

Immortal soul is a Pharisaic concept dominated the Jews at Jesus time.

God on the other hand, is completely incompatible with sin, He's trying with His best effort right now to bear with our sins. This situation will end after the Judgment Day. He will be happy again after the Final Judgment with the relief that He needs to bear with human sins no more. He will since then live happily with the angels and the saved in an eternity we refer to as Heaven.

Now what happens to the unsaved? Their immortal souls will have to go another path. God will completely ignore their existence. This state is commonly referred to as the permanent separation from God.

What happens when humans (angels alike) are put in such a state? Since God is the only source of good in this universe, without God's presence and His guidance those in such a separation will finally come to an end where all of them will become the same as the devil himself.

God has ever sworn the oath that they can never enter His rest. There won't be any grace under any name to spare them from the situation. Unless the only Jesus is put to disgrace the second time. This however won't happen.

Finally, the unquenchable fire will come as a result.

godshapedhole said:

Is God loving? Is God all-powerful? If he is both, why would he sentence good people to eternal suffering, just because they were born into the wrong religion, or chose the wrong beliefs? Even if they had led a life more virtuous and compassionate than any Christian that has ever lived?

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A person is good only when he can pass the Judgment of God's Law on the Judgment Day. God will not sentence such a good person to eternal suffering. Although the Bible predicts that there could be no such a good person nowadays.

Dirk1540 said:

You don't get tortured forever, you cease to exist.

Maybe a Christian in here can answer me this...who's to say that you don't get 'A moment' at the time of your death if it is the case that you sincerely were tricked into false belief, and that in the right situation you would have chosen Christ? I can't help but to think of concepts such as WHEN do you die, combined with concepts of time. Einstein literally proved that time is relative. Who's to say that at the moment of death, 1 second before your actual death it does not equate to a month's worth of time with God where he reveals the truth to you and presents you with an 'Honest moment of decision time?' I am not talking about the person who legitimately rejects God, I am talking about a person who would have accepted.

I myself have actually experienced the relativity of time. I'm not about to claim some crazy experience, I just happen to be one of those people who dream all the time. Anyway, I have had moments where I hit the snooze button on my alarm clock (for 10 minutes), took a few minutes to fall back asleep, and fell into a dream that easily lasted an hour...then got woken up about 6 minutes later! So I have first hand experience with the relativity of time, I KNOW it is a fact. Who's to say when death is?? Who's to say that God does not enter in before death to those who were deceived?

By the way you do not get tortured forever you cease to exist. Read the book 'The Fire That Consumes' by Edward William Fudge' it's a pretty technical book that breaks down this concept Biblically.

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I don't believe that is true. How would that be just...the bible says it is just to punish people who have caused you to suffer. And vengeance is mine, I will repay. And then in another place talking about fallen angels that He sent in gloomy darkness with darkest of dark .
I know Jewish people believe that, so I've read. And they're right about a lot. I just don't think this is correct belief. But, hopefully I won't ever have to go there to see. Lol .

godshapedhole said:

Is God loving or not? Is He all-powerful or not? It seems an impossible paradox to me.

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Spiritual truths are generally paradoxical. Learn to live with them, since you and I cannot possibly see the whole picture.

Here's a paradox for you. The Lord Jesus Christ -- who is God -- was (and is) absolutely holy and righteous and undefiled. But the Bible says that He was literally "made Sin for us". Why? I'll let you search out the answer for yourself.

I guess it's difficult for a skeptical doubter like me to get a grasp on it. I think it really depends on what "hell" is. It it simply to "cease to exist", just annihilation? Is it eternal fire and brimstone medieval pain and torture? Or is it still eternity but without God? What would that be like? If hell were a state in which I was distant from God, but could still contemplate the universe, I might be okay with that. Similarly, if it were simple annihilation, cessation of existence, I wouldn't fear that either. But whatever heaven and hell are, I don't believe they should be a carrot and stick to keep our behaviour in check in this life, we should be compassionate and loving for the sake of others, not our own, and refrain from sin for the sake of others and for our own mental purity, out of geuine compassion and love, not out of hope for reward. At least that's how I see it, but I'm a doubting humanist looking for God and Christ.

ViaCrucis said:

That's often how the West has spoken of Hell, it's not however how the East has done so. Many Orthodox will quite rightly point out that God, being omnipresent, means that there is simply no way to ever be truly separate from God, God is present everywhere. Indeed, we read the Psalmist say, "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into the heavens, You are there; if I make my bed in She'ol, You are there." (Psalm 139:7-8).



But in saying these things you too are providing your own opinions and theories. That's not wrong, but it does seem to be going against the point you are wanting to make here.

-CryptoLutheran

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Very true, but I'm not writing a book. And where is it rightly pointed that God is ever in the presence of evil? Remember God created all but after the great white throne judgement God casts even hell into the lake of fire where nothing but good will be left. This is the problem of modern day "Christianity". The things that does not matter, the things that can be and are argued in nausism by man tend to confuse and drive people away from God instead of bring them closer. It should be the plain and simple command left by Jesus that we focus on. The ones that the Holy Spirit fill us with and we won't be left with questions we have like "What denomination of christianity would suit me best"? That's just nonsense. Where in the Bible did Jesus say that his church should be divided in belief. That's man's inability to admit he's pig-headed pure and simple.

Rational Inquirer said:

As an agnostic who strives to keep an open mind, the aspect of Christian doctrine that disturbs me the most, and seems like it would prevent me from ever accepting Christianity, is the teaching that non-Christians go to hell. It doesn't make sense to me that if you don't happen to pick the right religion, you get tortured forever and ever. Do a billion people in India deserve eternal suffering simply because they were born in a non-Christian society? Am I looking at this the wrong way? How can I reconcile this teaching with the Christian conception of a loving and just God?

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The idea, with regard to those billions of Hindu you mention, is that the good news of the Christ is available to everyone due to the proselytizing that missionaries accomplish world wide.
The Saint Paul stated that nature is evidence of his god and therefore people are without excuse to not realize that god exists.
Though I don't think those who are as yet to be discovered by missionaries, such as those who may exist in the deepest jungles of the world, would go the route of hell, per the Christian's doctrine and being they had no opportunity to decide to follow the Christ.

I don't know the parameters for open discussion in this forum on this topic. I'm a Humanist and was raised in a family of Humanists. I do have my idea's about this Christian tradition but I don't know if we can openly discuss in this particular forum. Or any for that matter if it is not fully aligned with what is tradition.


Why do you feel you have to follow a belief system in order to be a success in life or a better person?

godshapedhole said:

I guess it's difficult for a skeptical doubter like me to get a grasp on it. I think it really depends on what "hell" is.

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Hell is called the Lake of Fire and it was created for the Devil and his angels. They will be eternally tormented day and night forever, which is their just punishment. Since you are not God, only God knows what is the perfect and just punishment for evil angels who have done nothing but evil day and day for millenia. You can either accept this as fact or reject it.

Because God does NOT want to see a single human being in Hell, He has provided the Lord Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life and the Lamb of God. If you receive Him as your Lord and Saviour and truly repent, you need not concern yourself with Hell.

Job8 said:

Hell is called the Lake of Fire and it was created for the Devil and his angels. They will be eternally tormented day and night forever, which is their just punishment. Since you are not God, only God knows what is the perfect and just punishment for evil angels who have done nothing but evil day and day for millenia. You can either accept this as fact or reject it.

Because God does NOT want to see a single human being in Hell, He has provided the Lord Jesus Christ as the Way, the Truth, and the Life and the Lamb of God. If you receive Him as your Lord and Saviour and truly repent, you need not concern yourself with Hell.

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I see where you're coming from and truly appreciate it. Thank you for ministering but hell is not the lake of fire. In Revelation it does say that on the Day of Judgement, the Great White Throne Judgement, Even Hell itself with all the inhabitants will be cast into the lake of fire so they are 2 completely different things. I'm not nitpicking or anything I just don't want you to be mistaken in your studies or called out by anyone who may be rude to you.