Open Fire?

This is a situational.

The son of a random dictator somewhere in the world comes to the US to party. After a while, its revealed that one of his hobbies is sexually abusing and torturing young women then murdering them. There is ample evidence to this fact but since his father has been granted diplomatic immunity (Which extends to his children) there can be no prosecution.

You are at the airport one day and you see the son walking down the terminal. Standing next to you is an airport cop with a gun in his holster. The son is five feet away and the cop is right next to you. You could potentially grab the gun from the cop's holster and get off two or three shots before being disarmed and you're close enough that theres a good chance you could hit the son and probably kill him.

You will definately get arrested and convicted (Half a dozen cameras and fifty or sixty witnesses). Theres is almost no chance that the son will be punished or even tried for his crimes, you would be removing an evil human being from the world.

So do you shoot him or not?

That is a really terrific question.

I think it would be an appropriate action to kill this guy for the irreparable damage he inflicts on everyone. Ideally, he'd be prosecuted, but in such circumstances where routine abuse is occurring and nothing can be done (and this literally involves torture) it would be justified to do it.

However, I am not sure, though, that I would have the moxie to personally do as much as it would be so contrary to my nature.

Steezie said:

This is a situational.

The son of a random dictator somewhere in the world comes to the US to party. After a while, its revealed that one of his hobbies is sexually abusing and torturing young women then murdering them. There is ample evidence to this fact but since his father has been granted diplomatic immunity (Which extends to his children) there can be no prosecution.

You are at the airport one day and you see the son walking down the terminal. Standing next to you is an airport cop with a gun in his holster. The son is five feet away and the cop is right next to you. You could potentially grab the gun from the cop's holster and get off two or three shots before being disarmed and you're close enough that theres a good chance you could hit the son and probably kill him.

You will definately get arrested and convicted (Half a dozen cameras and fifty or sixty witnesses). Theres is almost no chance that the son will be punished or even tried for his crimes, you would be removing an evil human being from the world.

So do you shoot him or not?

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Of course not. I wouldn´t even shoot him if I were sure to not get arrested or convicted for it.
I don´t divide humanity in good and evil persons, to begin with.

If you don´t mind the personal remark, Steezie: A lot of your posts make a lot of sense to me, but your occupation with violence strikes me as mildly disturbing.

Honestly, if the women he murders where not of my family, then no. Not my job.

If one of them where, I would be thinking long and hard about it....but probably would not shot him.

If you don´t mind the personal remark, Steezie: A lot of your posts make a lot of sense to me, but your occupation with violence strikes me as mildly disturbing.

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Why do you say I have an occupation with violence? It interests me as far as the human perspectives on it and my personal beliefs ingrain a part of a warrior tradition, but I don't think I have an occupation.

Personally one of (Not the only) the best deaths I can imagine is dying while fighting against an oppressive or what you might call evil force. Its a bit of an archaic belief, but none the less valid for me.

Steezie said:

Why do you say I have an occupation with violence? It interests me as far as the human perspectives on it and my personal beliefs ingrain a part of a warrior tradition, but I don't think I have an occupation.

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I said it because that´s how a lot of your threads come across to me. My personal beliefs don´t seem to ingrain any warrior tradition, and that´s probably the reason why I feel that way.

Personally one of (Not the only) the best deaths I can imagine is dying while fighting against an oppressive or what you might call evil force. Its a bit of an archaic belief, but none the less valid for me.

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Yes, that´s very alien to me. I don´t even think in categories like "evil force".
Nevermind. It´s just intriguing from how everyone´s desires are.

No, I wouldn't shoot him. Maybe I'd uppercut him though; I bet I wouldn't even get charged with anything for that.

First off: it wouldn't be in the airport, I would have killed him before he did anything to my family. But if, for whatever reason, I wasn't there when it happened: I'd kill him, cremate him, then spread his ashes across the desert. Brutal? Talk to the serial killer that was just put to rest about brutality.

Steezie said:

This is a situational.

So do you shoot him or not?

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I wouldn't do it. I have too many reasons to enjoy my freedom and not enough to spend the rest of my life in a jail cell. Lol.

I wouldn't shoot him under those circumstances.

No. I'm too selfish of my personal freedom. Plus, the possibility of a missed shot, or even the bullet passing through him to hit an innocent is too great.

Paulos23 said:

Honestly, if the women he murders where not of my family, then no. Not my job.

If one of them where, I would be thinking long and hard about it....but probably would not shot him.

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So do you feel almost as if it is not your business?

There was a famous play in ancient Greece where one of the main characters is being told off for paying too much attention to the affairs of others (I forget what it was that they were doing, Heck, I even forget the author) but the line came out: "But I am a human -- anything human is not alien to me."

I sort of agree with it -- I do not mean I should be in the business of someone bouncing a check or telling a white lie, but if we are talking about something as severe as torture...

Isn't it everyone's business?

I know if I was being tortured I would be very pleased to have somebody interject to save me.

The only person that would be upset would be the torturer.

Isn't part of our human life the business of doing good and bettering our own lot?

I would rather lock the criminal up in my basement and brainwash (er, decondition!) him for a few years, then release.

I'm studying up on how to be a really talented brainwasher so hopefully I'd do a good enuf job that not only would he stop committing crimes and dedicate the rest of his life to serving all that is, he wouldn't even feel guilty about the horrible crimes he did commit!

I could be joking.

....

(hide from my basement)

That being said, I would have no problem shooting somebody if it was the only way to prevent further tortures and homicides, if I didn't get caught (because I'm such a valid asset to humanity more people would suffer if I was caught than if i didn't shoot at all), and if none of the potential negative causality-waves springing from that event were likely to result in more tragedy than what was being prevented.

First, I'm not the kind of person who entertains violent fantasies, even against really destructive violent murdering freaks.

Secondly, if I shot the guy, there'd be one less dvmf in the world, but my family would be out a person who is important to them, because I'd be dead of a security personnel bullet or I'd be in jail, unable in either circumstance to contribute usefully to my family or to society.

Thirdly, the diplomatic immunity laws in many sane countries don't apply to dvmfs - they get nailed by the laws of their own countries for serious crimes committed in other places, if caught.

Steezie, I'll state as well - I like a lot of your posts, but you do project an image of a person who is really fascinated by weapons, martial arts, and by acts of violence, right down to your professed belief system. I'm an agnostic atheist - I don't expect I'd like your chosen deity any more than I like the usual suspects, maybe even less, because you frequently refer to war, self defense, weapons, etc., in relation to your faith.

It doesn't seem that you ever talk about methods of resolving problems peacefully, or about understanding what really lies beneath violence, war, or sociopathy. It's certainly likely that you're an inherently peaceful guy who just likes weapons and active martial arts, but you might like to know that you may be projecting an image through your posts which may be very much at odds with who you really are.

I'm an old sixties kinda woman, so

Peace, man.

If I really wanted to kill him, I'd walk him into a more favorable circumstance other than the one given, and depending on his crimes, shoot him in the head or stomach.

Sometimes I really think young men shouldn't be offleash at any time.

(That's a joke, son, a joke.)

Bombila said:

Steezie, I'll state as well - I like a lot of your posts, but you do project an image of a person who is really fascinated by weapons, martial arts, and by acts of violence, right down to your professed belief system. I'm an agnostic atheist - I don't expect I'd like your chosen deity any more than I like the usual suspects, maybe even less, because you frequently refer to war, self defense, weapons, etc., in relation to your faith.

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I wouldnt say fascinated but I do have an interest in thing such as swords (martial arts not so much). I study ancient warfare and ancient civilizations (A big part of ancient life was war). I have a broad interest of many things, it happens that many of the discussions here dont give me a chance to bring out my interest in these other things like tea, steampunk, city builder computer games, cybernetics etc etc.

It doesn't seem that you ever talk about methods of resolving problems peacefully, or about understanding what really lies beneath violence, war, or sociopathy. It's certainly likely that you're an inherently peaceful guy who just likes weapons and active martial arts, but you might like to know that you may be projecting an image through your posts which may be very much at odds with who you really are.

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I do consider peaceful options to be viable, but I also feel that there are times when talking simply wont work and you have to roll up your sleeves and mess someone up because if you wont, the other guy WILL. I do understand what lies beneath these conflicts and I study it actively. Im simply more willing to resort to a fight if I feel its needed. I am perfectly willing to talk it out, but Im also willing to fight for it if need be.

Part of it is I embrace (And in some cases actively encourage) what the vast majority if people attempt to conceal or cover. Every person has an animal nature to them. It comes out in fights or when they're angry or upset. That wild flash you see in someone's eyes or the anger you feel rising when someone hits you in the face. These reactions are part of our natural instincts, our animal side. Most people spend their lives running from that side, trying to push it down, cage it. Problem with that is that side of you doesn't LIKE being caged up and it wants to get out. So if you let it out to roam occasionally its going to fight to get out of the cage much less, and its something that can be unleashed when needed.

On the whole, I am a peaceful person. I do like to talk things out and work them out peaceably without having to get in a brawl about it. However there are certain things where I will not sit by and let something happen. If someone is trying to harm someone I care about, if I see someone harming someone else who is unable or unwilling to defend themselves, these kinds of things I will not try to work out peaceably. I will attempt to put an end to the situation via any means necessary to preserve the life of the defender.

Course not. Few people could live up to such altruism. Course if he had done that to someone I cared about, I'ld dedicate the rest of my life to getting me and him into a room all alone for 24 solid hours of...quality time.

Steezie said:

So do you shoot him or not?

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I'm pretty sure I would try peaceful solutions, such as digging up as much dirt on the guy and going to the media in an attempt to pressure the government into denying the psycho any access to the nation.

I would be willing to shoot the guy if he were raping someone in front of me, but not if he is simply in an airport. I do not see myself as judge, jury, and executioner of anyone I might happen to run across.


eudaimonia,

Mark

I thought about it and decided no. I lose more then I gain; when I am sent to prison, my life is effectively over for both me and my family. Also, by killing him I gain nothing more than a number, as the women he endangers I do not know nor am effected by.

I might do it if there is no chance of being incriminated for it, but how likely is that? (and that's still a very weak might)