Oops...one other question I forgot: How do evolution-deniers explain ring species?

NoPostDocFrock · Mar 9, 2013

Oops...one other question I omitted by mistake: How do evolution-deniers explain ring species?

In past searches I've not seen much treatment of RING SPECIES as examples of observable evolution. Does anyone know of any evolution-denying young earth creationist replies to ring species evolution?

AV1611VET · Mar 9, 2013

NoPostDocFrock said:
Oops...one other question I omitted by mistake: How do evolution-deniers explain ring species?

In past searches I've not seen much treatment of RING SPECIES as examples of observable evolution. Does anyone know of any evolution-denying young earth creationist replies to ring species evolution?

Only what I've been saying all along: that evolution works to a point, then it hits a barrier that it just cannot cross.

God is a God of boundaries ...

Psalm 104:9a Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over;

... and evolution can go just so far, then has to stop.

Wiccan_Child · Mar 9, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Only what I've been saying all along: that evolution works to a point, then it hits a barrier that it just cannot cross.

God is a God of boundaries ...

Psalm 104:9a Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over;

... and evolution can go just so far, then has to stop.

Where are these boundaries? Exactly how far can evolution go, and what scriptures support their existence?

46AND2 · Mar 9, 2013

Wiccan_Child said:
Where are these boundaries? Exactly how far can evolution go, and what scriptures support their existence?

One would think that one of the main goals of Christian Science would be to discover where the genetic evolution barrier exists, and determine what it is about our biology which would not allow us to go past that certain point.

Why are they not spending money on this research?

Strathos · Mar 9, 2013

AV1611VET said:
Only what I've been saying all along: that evolution works to a point, then it hits a barrier that it just cannot cross.

God is a God of boundaries ...

Psalm 104:9a Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over;

... and evolution can go just so far, then has to stop.

That verse refers to the ocean waters, not evolution.

You take the Bible out of context so often to try to prove your points.

AV1611VET · Mar 9, 2013

Wiccan_Child said:
Where are these boundaries? Exactly how far can evolution go, and what scriptures support their existence?

I don't know where the boundaries are. I would say it depends on what those boundaries are in the first place. They may be in the form of a pre-set number of generations, then they stop. They may be in the form of dwindling sterility, whereby they go sterile before a new genus is produced.

In other words, evolution can go to the end, with the end being determined by God's will.

And I thought I gave you a passage of Scripture that shows God sets a boundary?

AV1611VET · Mar 9, 2013

46AND2 said:
Why are they not spending money on this research?

That's like telling a young child, "Give me your money you plan to spend at the candy store, and I'll tell you where the local runway ends."

AV1611VET · Mar 9, 2013

Strathos said:
That verse refers to the ocean waters, not evolution.

You take the Bible out of context so often to try to prove your points.

How many different boundaries does He have to set, before we can claim He is a God who sets boundaries?

46AND2 · Mar 9, 2013

AV1611VET said:
That's like telling a young child, "Give me your money you plan to spend at the candy store, and I'll tell you where the local runway ends."

Strathos · Mar 9, 2013

AV1611VET said:
How many different boundaries does He have to set, before we can claim He is a God who sets boundaries?

You could use that logic to claim there's a boundary on how much of the Bible you should take literally.

BazAussiekid1173 · Mar 9, 2013

AV1611VET said:
That's like telling a young child, "Give me your money you plan to spend at the candy store, and I'll tell you where the local runway ends."

That statement made no sense whatsoever.

Tomk80 · Mar 9, 2013

46AND2 said:
One would think that one of the main goals of Christian Science would be to discover where the genetic evolution barrier exists, and determine what it is about our biology which would not allow us to go past that certain point.

Why are they not spending money on this research?

It's one of the few things they are actually spending money on. Todd Wood is one of the people looking at this (Todd's Blog). Of course, his research is basically some 250 years out of date, given that Linneaus' classification already hinted showed that such a barrier does not exist.

46AND2 · Mar 9, 2013

Tomk80 said:
It's one of the few things they are actually spending money on. Todd Wood is one of the people looking at this (Todd's Blog). Of course, his research is basically some 250 years out of date, given that Linneaus' classification already hinted showed that such a barrier does not exist.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that.

Wiccan_Child · Mar 10, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I don't know where the boundaries are. I would say it depends on what those boundaries are in the first place. They may be in the form of a pre-set number of generations, then they stop. They may be in the form of dwindling sterility, whereby they go sterile before a new genus is produced.

In other words, evolution can go to the end, with the end being determined by God's will.

And I thought I gave you a passage of Scripture that shows God sets a boundary?

A boundary, perhaps, but Psalm 104:9a doesn't refer to a boundary God set to evolution, it refers to a boundary God set on flowing water (namely, that it would never again flood the Earth).

Incidentally, Psalm 104:5b says that the Earth is fixed and can never be moved - doesn't that rather contradict the fact that it does move?

The Engineer · Mar 10, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I don't know where the boundaries are. I would say it depends on what those boundaries are in the first place. They may be in the form of a pre-set number of generations, then they stop. They may be in the form of dwindling sterility, whereby they go sterile before a new genus is produced.

You're sure the boundaries exist, you just don't know what or where they are. If you don't even know what to look for, how can you have found it?

In other words, evolution can go to the end, with the end being determined by God's will.

Cool story. If only there was evidence for it...

And I thought I gave you a passage of Scripture that shows God sets a boundary?

I don't believe the Scripture, and even if I did, I wouldn't believe your misrepresentation of it.

driewerf · Mar 10, 2013

NoPostDocFrock said:
Oops...one other question I omitted by mistake: How do evolution-deniers explain ring species?

In past searches I've not seen much treatment of RING SPECIES as examples of observable evolution. Does anyone know of any evolution-denying young earth creationist replies to ring species evolution?

They simply don't.
As I wrote earlier, creationists limit the sciences to "cute science".
Astronomy is limited to stars and planet. No galaxies, or clusters of galaxies, no back ground radiation, or white dwarfs or neutron stars.

Biology is limited to "cute animals" or to domesticated animals (cats, dogs, monkeys), never lizzards or lungfishes. When speaking about dynosaurs, they take all dyno's as one lot. They don't differentiate between apathosaurus, or velociraptor of iguanodons. That's too complicated.
They also speak of "a cat giving birth to a dog", not the evolution of specific organs.

Biochemistry is limited to DNA. Rna and proteins are never mentioned.

So, it is no wonder they don't speak about ring species. The known examples of ringspecies aren't "cute animals" and the concept quite difficult. (To be honest, it took me a while before I got it.)

AV1611VET · Mar 10, 2013

The Engineer said:
You're sure the boundaries exist, you just don't know what or where they are.

And you do?

One good example, right off the top of my head, is a donkey (or a mule or something).

As I understand it, they are born sterile; thus sterility is their boundary.

Another example would be a horse and elephant, or a fly and an elephant, or a mosquito and alligator (let's assume in-vitro with these).

That won't even produce anything; thus that's a dead-end right from the start.

Another example is ring species.

The Engineer · Mar 10, 2013

AV1611VET said:
And you do?

Yes, I know that the boundaries are non-existant.

One good example, right off the top of my head, is a donkey (or a mule or something).

As I understand it, they are born sterile; thus sterility is their boundary.

Another example would be a horse and elephant, or a fly and an elephant, or a mosquito and alligator (let's assume in-vitro with these).

That won't even produce anything; thus that's a dead-end right from the start.

Some species can't interbreed with one another, so you assume that there are boundaries to the extent of evolution? Doesn't sound very logical to me. All this means is that species can't interbreed if the genetic differences between them are too great. You could call this a boundary of evolution, yes, but it's not a boundary that applies when evolution happens through small, but constant changes in the genotype, due to mutations and breeding of species or members of a species that are genetically similar (but not equal).

Another example is ring species.

Well, no. Read above.

AV1611VET · Mar 10, 2013

The Engineer said:
Yes, I know that the boundaries are non-existant.

I don't subscribe to your knowledge regarding this.

The Engineer said:
Some species can't interbreed with one another, so you assume that there are boundaries to the extent of evolution?

I don't assume it -- I claim it.

The Engineer said:
Doesn't sound very logical to me.

Then try theological.

The Engineer said:
All this means is that species can't interbreed if the genetic differences between them are too great.

No argument there.

The Engineer said:
You could call this a boundary of evolution, yes, but it's not a boundary that applies when evolution happens through small, but constant changes in the genotype, due to mutations and breeding of species or members of a species that are genetically similar (but not equal).

Then another type of boundary must apply, eh?

The Engineer · Mar 10, 2013

AV1611VET said:
I don't subscribe to your knowledge regarding this.

Too bad I have better arguments.

I don't assume it -- I claim it.

Yeah, right. Big difference.

Then try theological.

So you think theology is illogical? Good to know.

No argument there.

Great argumentation method. Instead of addressing my arguments, you just deny their existence.

And then you accept them anyway:

Then another type of boundary must apply, eh?

Then I suggest you show me what this boundary is, instead of just claiming its existence without any kind of proof whatsoever.

Oops...one other question I forgot: How do evolution-deniers explain ring species?

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