To make my question extremely short, isnt pentacostal 'oneness' saying the same thing as other christians that claim the 'trinity'? if not whats the difference if so then why not just say the same thing ?
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A fair read if interested: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/One-Top.htm
David K. Bernard is the founding pastor of New Life United Pentecostal Church of Austin, Texas, and the associate editor in the Editorial Division of the United Pentecostal Church International.
Christian Forums hold to the belief that the Trinitarian nature of God is essential to Christianity. In fact, it is one of the fundamental doctrines of the early church.
The United Pentecostal Church (UPC) or the Oneness Movement however is explicitly anti-Trinitarian in nature and believes in Modalism instead, a doctrine that the early church had to battle, with one method being the formation of the early creeds such as the Nicene creed.
As such, members of this church will not be able to pass Forum Rule 6 and therefore should not use a Christian icon or post in the Christians-only forums. There is a specific Oneness faith icon for the use of members of the UPC and/or Oneness churches.
References:
http://religion-cults.com/heresies/second.htm\
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/o00.html#oneness
http://www.factnet.org/cults/United...stal_Church.htm
http://www.watchman.org/cults/upc.htm
http://www.ex-cult.org/Groups/UPC/
http://www.eaec.org/cults/unitedpentecostal.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/eva...iefs/cults.html
There has been much research and books published about this issue - I suggest members not take our word for it but undertake their own research.
Christian Forums wish to exclude any doctrines that it views as "heresy" from being posted in the Christian-only forums. We apologize for any inconvenience.
Oneness see the distinction in the Godhead as modes verses actual persons (as Trinitarians do).To make my question extremely short, isnt pentacostal 'oneness' saying the same thing as other christians that claim the 'trinity'? if not whats the difference if so then why not just say the same thing ?
Trinitarians do not see the Trinity as three distinct personas?Oneness see the distinction in the Godhead as modes verses actual persons (as Trinitarians do).
John 12:45; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16.The problem is how they solve their theology . . . the father is actually the deity side of Christ while the Son is actually the human side of Christ . . . so the Son is really not God at all . . . He is only God inso much as He has the Father present in Him but the Son is not God at all.
e-yep.Other historic names for this view has been Modalism, Modalistic Monarchianism (vs. Dynamic Monarchainism), and Sabellianism.
It is noted he is "begotten," Acts 13:33; 1 John 4:9.To the Oneness adherant . . . the Son doesn't exist until the incarnation . . .
*le shrug*There are other GREAT flaws as well that are in addition to a heretical view of the ontology of the Godhead.
Ephesians 2:20; Acts 4:11, 12.Jesus name only for baptism . . . or your not saved
Wrong perspective.Tongues essential for salvation
I've heard of some churches regarding the jewelry as well wedding bands; but not so much concerning churches around where I live.Many UPCI are also VERY legalistic in their pursuit of holiness as well . . . women cannot cut their hair . . . they cannot wear pants . . . neither men or women can wear jewelry . . . not even wedding bands . . . etc. etc. etc.
Now im confused. on one hand i have read the arguements regarding 'oneness' which use alot of scripture and it's quite convincing, especially since the word trinity doenst appear in the bible. however the other side effects of being in a UPC church is the legalism and silly over bearing rules. does this mean that the UPC is almost if not a cult ?
[/QUOTE]Trinitarians do not see the Trinity as three distinct personas?
John 12:45; Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 3:16.
e-yep.
It is noted he is "begotten," Acts 13:33; 1 John 4:9.
On the flip side, 1 Peter 1:18-20; Revelation 13:8 tell Jesus was before the world.
As Colossians 1:12-17; Hebrews 1:3 similarly meet.
Where to draw the line, I'm not completely certain >_<.
*le shrug*
Ephesians 2:20; Acts 4:11, 12.
Wrong perspective.
Oneness, at least the Pentecostal circle I'm in, views the Holy Ghost [receiving/ continuing therein] coupled with tongues.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
I'm still delving into this subject, though >_<.
And quoting David K. Bernard apparently is taboo >_>.
I've heard of some churches regarding the jewelry as well wedding bands; but not so much concerning churches around where I live.
About the hair, the better part of 1 Corinthians 11 touches on this.
Pants? Hm. I've heard 'this' and 'that,' but at the moment you got me thar @_@.
pax
They are not refering to the rules here Dave . . . the OP is refering to the theological arguements of the two positions.The rules are the rules and it is better that way. They have their own section under the unorthodox theology section of the boards.
questions
Also with the UPC why is it that it's called 'United' when not all churches are united with their 'standards'? i was told that women in pants they bought in the female section are going to hell. i was told that if a female cuts the end of her hair she is rebellous, even though the bible never says to grow it forever it just says a womans hair is her covering..thats it..
i witnessed a church tell people to take off their rings and buy watches, then after church the ministry guys compare rolex's..
what the heck is going on? im confused
Just because the word "Trinity" doesn't occur in the Bible doesn't really mean anything. It is true that a developed Trinitarian doctrine wasn't the goal of the early church . . . their most immediate threat was Docetic Gnosticism . . . the development of the doctrine of Trinity wasn't really solidified until 325-400 AD . . . as the church had to meet the heresies of Modalism (a century before) and Arianism (of much wider acceptance than Modalism).Now im confused. on one hand i have read the arguements regarding 'oneness' which use alot of scripture and it's quite convincing, especially since the word trinity doenst appear in the bible. however the other side effects of being in a UPC church is the legalism and silly over bearing rules. does this mean that the UPC is almost if not a cult ?
'This' and 'that ^^.' Nearing the end of this first year; specifically the one so dear to my heart *cough.*What up Gyorg?
To be honest: I've become scared of the subject. Though, ignorance is no excuseWhat happened to our other conversation? Been waiting for you . . .
Understood.The Trinitarians DO see a distinction in the Godhead and describe it as PERSONS. My statement wasn't clear. It was supposed to be a contrast and not a equivative.
How do you interpret the verses I dropped by the subject they were given under?C'mon bro . . . you can post Scripture citations and have them point to one thing . . . when you know that is not all there is to it . . . there are also other passages that need to be reconciled with your quotes. BTW please give your arguements for the passages that you dropped.
e-yep. But the mistake many make is seeking the hand of God rather than his face (tongues rather than the Spirit. the Spirit being God's indwelling rather than some language. tongues is not held in some grand regard though, even those of the devil can speak in another language (tongues); though within this subject context is integral. as before I've referenced Mathew 12:29; James 3:1-8; while not specific to tongues, it is a correlation of sorts, I admit).As for the tongues thing . . . the emphasis is that one needs to receive the Spirit for salvation . . . and this is evidenced to Oneness by the manifestation of speaking in tongues . . . this is the evidence that one has indeed recieved the Spirit . . . so if one does not speak in tongues, one does not have the Spirit . . . one is NOT saved . . . hence one must speak in tongues as an evidence that the Spirit has really entered into one in the salvation act. Classical Oneness soteriology. This leads to many filling the altars seeking for tongues so that they can feel assured that they have the Spirit.
Dear Gyorg . . . God is leading you . . . nothing to be scared of there. Truth is the domian of the Spirit.'This' and 'that ^^.' Nearing the end of this first year; specifically the one so dear to my heart *cough.*
Yourself Mathetes the kerux ^-^?
To be honest: I've become scared of the subject. Though, ignorance is no excuse.
Hm. I've thought of some things. Per se, one can believe 'on' whilst not being saved; and the question of what attribute this has to play: within the two works you identify the Spirit enacts.
Understood.
How do you interpret the verses I dropped by the subject they were given under?
True; there is an array of scripture one needs consider before understanding any certain subject (though each verse contributes, and as no one contradicts another: each point according to each verse is important). But to start somewhere I listed such verses.
e-yep. But the mistake many make is seeking the hand of God rather than his face (tongues rather than the Spirit. the Spirit being God's indwelling rather than some language. tongues is not held in some grand regard though, even those of the devil can speak in another language (tongues); though within this subject context is integral. as before I've referenced Mathew 12:29; James 3:1-8; while not specific to tongues, it is a correlation of sorts, I admit).
I grew up in an oneness church. I begin to seek God for myself! Oh, the trouble and upheaval of my life. I was kicked out of some churches and black balled by others. I have been separated from my own family members as an outsider.To make my question extremely short, isnt pentacostal 'oneness' saying the same thing as other christians that claim the 'trinity'? if not whats the difference if so then why not just say the same thing ?
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