One way or more than one way? This is the question!

Alla27 said:

Sorry, let me read your post again. may be I didn't understand it. Sometimes it is hard to understand because English is my second language.

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I understand where your confusion is coming from.

You are making the connection that "kingdom of God" refers to "heaven", that is, "the place where God is, somewhere out there".

My point is this: God's kingdom isn't a place. Full stop. The kingdom of God is not heaven.

Further: The term "heaven" as used in the Bible in reference to God is used poetically and euphemistically. In Hebrew thought "the heavens" (Hebrew haShamayim) refers to everything above us from our perspective. It's where the clouds float, where birds fly, it's where the sun, moon, and stars inhabit in the great big "up there stuff". God, therefore, was said to "dwell" in Shamayim haShamayim, that is "the heavens of heavens". In Hebrew to describe the greatest of things involved a couplet, so for example in the Temple there was the Kadesh or "the Holy [place]" it was the sanctuary in the Temple; but then there was the inner sanctuary which was called the Kadesh haKadeshim or "the Holy of Holies" or "the Most Holy Place". Other phrases are for example Melek haMelekim or "King of Kings" etc. So the Shamayim haShamayim or "heavens of heavens" or "the highest heavens" was used to describe God as being above all things. God was higher than the heavens above which we see and observe, He was beyond and above the sun, the moon, and the stars, and everything else. Indeed Solomon declares, "The heavens cannot contain you, not even the highest heavens," God is so much more, so much bigger, and so far beyond the things we observe--even the highest and loftiest things we observe.

From this comes the idea of "heaven" as a euphemism for God. For example we see in Matthew's Gospel that he usually uses "kingdom of Heaven" where Mark and Luke have "kingdom of God". That's because "Heaven" here is used as a euphemism for God. Heaven, here, is not some literal space where God is walking around, it's the uttermost reality of God's glory and sovereignty. God is not located in some place called "Heaven", but rather "Heaven" expresses the total transcendence of God above and beyond all creation; and more importantly because God is omnipresent--He is present everywhere at all times--"Heaven" never means a "place" too distant. As we read in the Acts of the Apostles,

"... Yet he is actually not far from each one of us," Acts 17:27

Therefore entering God's kingdom is not about going to some place called "Heaven"; the kingdom of God is the reality that God is king, even right here and now. In our baptism we have been born of God and are therefore members and partakers of His kingdom right here and right now.

Further, when Christ says "No one can come unto the Father but by Me" He does not mean "going to heaven" either. He means that He alone is the Means by which the Father is known to us. We read in the beginning of John's Gospel, "No one has ever seen God [the Father]; the only God [the Son], who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known." (John 1:18).

Christ, who is the Incarnate Word of God, makes God the Father known. We have, therefore, seen the Father if we have seen the Son, because the Son makes the Father known. Therefore He alone is the Way to the Father, He alone is the Means by which we approach the Father and call Him our own Father, and have relationship with the Father--this alone by and through Christ. No one can know the Father except by the Son who makes Him known. That's what "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one can come to the Father but by Me" means.

-CryptoLutheran

Alla27 said:

Yes, I understand what you say. So, some people from the nations who never knew about Christ, didn't know the Gospel, didn't confess their sins, didn't repent, were NOT born again, but were good people will enter kingdom of God some another way, different than through Jesus Christ. They will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others and NOT through their FAITH IN CHRIST.
So, words of Jesus that He is the way to ALL people are not true. Jesus's words that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter kingdom of God are not true.
Because according to your understanding of Matthew it will be people who were not born again but they will be on the right hand and will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others.
Interesting. I didn't know some people understand the Bible this way. Very interesting.

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I think we're not connecting somehow, because when I read back how you understand my beliefs it doesn't sound like something I'd say. So I'll make some piecemeal observations below.

Alla27 said:

Yes, I understand what you say. So, some people from the nations who never knew about Christ, didn't know the Gospel, didn't confess their sins, didn't repent, were NOT born again, but were good people will enter kingdom of God some another way, different than through Jesus Christ. They will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others and NOT through their FAITH IN CHRIST.

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I'm stumbling over the phrase "nice to others". When I read the criteria Jesus is using I don't think "nice to others" is nearly enough. Those sheep are people who lived lives of selfless good deeds. And there won't be that many of them, because Jesus also said "the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter are many".

Alla27 said:

So, words of Jesus that He is the way to ALL people are not true.

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This is not at all what I believe. Since Jesus is sitting on the throne, he is the way for those people also.

Alla27 said:

Jesus's words that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter kingdom of God are not true.

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I admit this can seem to be a tricky one. But being born again is a New Testament concept. Let's look back at some righteous Old Testament figures. Was Jacob born again, or Moses, or Joshua? I believe we both agree that they are in heaven and will share in the resurrection. So Old Testament criteria for entering the resurrection aren't exactly the same as New Testament criteria. They had a different covenant than we do now.

Alla27 said:

Because according to your understanding of Matthew it will be people who were not born again but they will be on the right hand and will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others.
Interesting. I didn't know some people understand the Bible this way. Very interesting.

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Again, the world lived under different covenants back then. The Jews lived under the Mosaic law. The rest of mankind lived under the Noahide law. Being born again wasn't included in those covenants. The opportunity to be born again is part of a much better covenant.

Alla27 said:

There were some people in the USSR who died and before they died God did NOT reveal to them anything about Himself. They did NOT know a thing about Him. How is that they are without any excuses? Why didn't God reveal to them about Himself anything? How are they going to enter God's kingdom if except a man is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter kingdom of God?

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All humans are supposed to know God well enough as descendants of Noah/Adam. If they don't know God simply because one of their ancestors after Noah decided to leave God at some point. Still God's mercy is on them for at least they are under the protection of the covenant signed with Noah. They can enter the Kingdom of God if they can fulfill the requirements of that older covenant. It is basically the same requirements set forth for all gentiles, that is, we need to follow God's Law written in our hearts.

However it is predicted more 2000 years ago that human branches today can hardly abide by God's Law written in our hearts. Thus it relies on humans themselves to 1) spread the Gospel as far as they can, 2) accept the New Covenant to be saved.

Christians are trying hard to spread the Gospel worldwide. Russia is actually reached by another branch of the Catholics (The Orthodox Church). This is however countered the human efforts in introducing the communism. It is a human effort to reject God's Grace. It is humans are thus to blame.

Alla27 said:

My question is this:
Let's pretend that
1)I am born in Americas in times when Jesus is walking on earth. I never heard about Him and about His gospel in my life. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
2)I am born in the 1st century BC in Australia. I never heard about Christ. I never heard His gospel in my life. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
3)I am born in 14th century AD on an little island where nobody ever heard about Christ and His gospel. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?
4) I am born in Saudi Arabia in 21th century. I am 15 years old. I was killed at this age. I never heard the gospel of Christ. I don't know what it means to follow Christ. It is NOT my fault. How can I enter Father's presence if Jesus Christ is the only way to Father and you explained to me very well what it means?

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Hi Alla,

This question is difficult to answer under the Penal model of the atonement which is held by many today. However, under the classic or ransom view it isn't that difficult to answer. Jesus said, 'no one comes to the Father, but by Me'. Under the Ramson view of Atonement Jesus is seen as giving Himself as a ransom to buy back mankind from Satan who gained control of man in the Garden. The view holds that basically, Adam and Eve chose to believe Satan rather than God when they ate from the tree of knowledge. This essentially made them subject to Satan. At this point man had no option to return to God because man was a slave to Satan. Jesus came and gave His life as a ransom to buy back mankind and free him from Satan's control. After Jesus paid the ransom mankind was once again under God's control, thus the only way for anyone to come to God was through Jesus. His ransom payment enabled all people to come to God.

Alla27 said:

Not according to Jesus Christ. John 14:
2 In my Father's HOUSE(place) are many MANTIONS(places): if it were not so, I would have TOLD you,
I go to prepare A PLACE for you.
So, heaven is a place in God's house/kingdom, Jesus is the one who can prepare a place in it.
Heaven is also can refer to the sky. I agree.
From this I make a conclusion: no man can enter Father's house and have A PLACE in it except he is born of water and of the Spirit.
All those who never heard the Gospel in this life can come to Father and have A PLACE in His house except they were born of water and of the Spirit. Except if they are born again.
How can they be born again? They are dead.

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Nope. Notice that "in my Father's house" is no where identified with the kingdom of God.

Further, I think attempting to insist that the many abodes Jesus mentions involves literal mansions/houses in a place called "heaven" to be particularly shallow. What real emphasis of what Jesus is saying is this, "That where I am, there you shall be also." Jesus isn't building literal sky houses.

-CryptoLutheran

Alla27 said:

According to Jesus He prepares a place for some in Father's house. According to Jesus these people may be where He is.
Where is Jesus? He is in God's heavenly kingdom.
Logical conclusion - God's house is in God's heavenly kingdom

So, how those who never heard Gospel of Christ in this life can enter A PLACE Father's house(which is in God's kingdom) IF there is a condition according to Jesus Christ - except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he can not enter kingdom of God where Jesus is and where there is house of God?

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Again. God's "heavenly kingdom" isn't "God's house". You keep saying this, but Jesus does not.

-CryptoLutheran

Alla27 said:

God's house is in His heavenly Kingdom according to the Bible.

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Where in the Bible?

-CryptoLutheran

Alla27 said:

According to the Bible Jesus never said that there are different criterias to enter the resurrection. Never.
Jesus said that NO MAN can come to Father except if he is born of water and of the Spirit. Except if he is born again. Period.

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According to the Bible, Jesus says that we now have a new covenant. I suppose that this is one of the differences between Christian and LDS theologies. Part of the Christian new covenant is that we now receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The Old Testament figures didn't receive that. Nevertheless there are numerous examples that reveal some of them were saved (one example is the transfiguration). In Christianity, being "born again" is a new part of the new covenant.

Alla27 said:

You ask if Jacob, Moses, Joshua were born again?
If the Bible doesn't say that these men were born again, Jesus says that except they are born again they can NOT come to Father. They can not enter father kingdom. Period.

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Again, being born again is being born of the spirit, which is part of the new covenant. They lived under different covenants (the covenant with Abraham and the Mosaic Law) and had different rules. If you disagree, then you're seeing a difference between Christian and LDS theologies.

Alla27 said:

So, this is my question. As all those people who never heard the Gospel, how can Jacob, Moses and Joshua come to Father? How can they be born again, born of water and of the Spirit?
I repeat, according to the Bible Jesus said: NO MAN can come to Father EXCEPT he is born of water and of the Spirit. Period.

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Here is my answer. Again.

Down through history God has made different covenants with different groups of people. For example, consider God's rules regarding something as simple as diet:

• Adam was commanded to be vegan.
• Noah could eat anything at all.
• The Mosaic Law established kosher rules for Israel (the rest of the earth remained under Noah's rules).
• Jesus declared all foods clean.

Regarding salvation, those rules also have changed. Paul goes into detail about it in his letters, like here in Romans 7:

But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

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They didn't have the Spirit like we do now. That's why Nicodemus was so shocked to here what Jesus said about being "born of the Spirit": it wasn't part of the covenant Nicodemus had been following, but a new thing.

From your reaction, I'm guessing this is really different from LDS teaching.

St. Paul writes,

"What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" - Romans 4:1-3

and also,

"We say, 'Faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness.' How then was it reckoned to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the ancestor of all who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them, and likewise the ancestor of the circumcised who are not only circumcised but who also follow the example of the faith that our ancestor Abraham had before he was circumcised. For the promise that he would inherit the world did not come to Abraham or to his descendants through the law but through the righteousness of faith. If it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath; but where there is no law, neither is their violation. For this reason it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants, not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham (for he is the father of all of us, as it is written, 'I have made you the father of many nations')--in the presence of God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. Hoping against hope, he believed that he would become the 'father of many nations,' according to what was said, 'So numerous shall your descendants be.' He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was already as good as dead (for he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, being fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. Therefore his faith 'was reckoned to him as righteousness.' Now the words, 'it was reckoned to him,' were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification.

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand; and we boast in our hope of sharing the glory of God. And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us. For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly." -Romans 4:9-25, 5:1-6

So we say that Abraham was saved--justified--by grace through faith. For having believed the promises of God which, ultimately, would be fulfilled in Christ he was reckoned justified, righteous, through faith.

Whether before or since Christ, there has always been salvation in no other name, in no other, than Christ. For those who came before, and for those of us today; God's promises have always been placed firmly in Jesus and graciously, through faith, God justifies and saves.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Nope. Notice that "in my Father's house" is no where identified with the kingdom of God.

Further, I think attempting to insist that the many abodes Jesus mentions involves literal mansions/houses in a place called "heaven" to be particularly shallow. What real emphasis of what Jesus is saying is this, "That where I am, there you shall be also." Jesus isn't building literal sky houses.

-CryptoLutheran

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_______________________________________________________________________________
It is an interesting question: If a person never had the opportunity to even hear the name of Jesus Christ in their life, let alone his sayings and doctrines, how can they be admitted into the Kingdom of God?

Where the Kingdom of God is, is probably off topic. The Bible makes it pretty clear there is a literal place that we will dwell with God and His Son Jesus Christ after the resurrection, if we make the right choices and by the grace of Jesus are allowed in.

Peter1000 said:

_______________________________________________________________________________
It is an interesting question: If a person never had the opportunity to even hear the name of Jesus Christ in their life, let alone his sayings and doctrines, how can they be admitted into the Kingdom of God?

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If we change the question to "How can they be saved?" then I would submit a two part answer:

1) The same as anyone else, Christ alone.
2) The Church should not presume to judge matters known only to God, so we do not say who is "in" and who is "out", that is God's determination alone in His justice and mercy. St. Augustine is quoted as having said spoken of that there are many outside the Church that belong to God and we do not know, and there are many we do know in the Church that are not God's. Or to quote a common Orthodox statement, "We know where the Church is, we don't know where the Church is not."

Where the Kingdom of God is, is probably off topic. The Bible makes it pretty clear there is a literal place that we will dwell with God and His Son Jesus Christ after the resurrection, if we make the right choices and by the grace of Jesus are allowed in.

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The only "literal place" the Bible speaks of people dwelling after the resurrection of the dead is right here on earth. Consistently Scripture speaks to the renewal and the restoration of all creation, the resurrection of the body is part of God setting all creation right and so in the resurrection we shall dwell with the Lord forever right here on this blue marble.

But Scripture does not mention any "literal place" where God is right now. God is not a creature that He should be tied to time and place, He has no body, He has no shape or form. He is present everywhere, through all things, over all things. The Psalmist has said rightly, "Where can I go to flee Your Spirit? Where can I go to escape Your presence?"

-CryptoLutheran

Alla27 said:

I see what you are saying. According to the Bible because of Adam ALL mankind is born into mortality and into this world where there is Satan/evil. It is not your fault, it is not my fault that we are born as mortals here.
That is why according to the Bible because of Jesus Christ ALL mankind including you and me will be resurrected and live forever. It is immortality. There is nothing we can or have to do to be resurrected/to have immortality.
So, all those who never heard about Christ and what He did for them, and never had faith in Him, never confessed their sins, never were born again, WILL LIVE AGAIN thank to Jesus.
But we know from the Bible that NOT ALL who will be resurrected because Christ saved all from death can come to Father.
Only through Christ it is possible to achieve salvation in Father's kingdom. How? By having faith in Christ and by repenting of sins, and by being born of water and of Spirit.
So, how all those people who never knew about Christ and who will be ransomed from the death(will have immortality) because of Christ can come to Father? how can they be saved in heaven without faith in Christ and without being born of water and of Spirit?
thank you.

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I don't know how you got all of that out of what I said, but I didn't say everyone will live forever. The Scriptures plainly teach otherwise. We read in the Scriptures that the Father alone has immortality.