One third of the angels?

[StormyOne]

RC said in another thread:

Where does it say 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven? Until you learn that much of what you believe is only an interpretation of something you are at a disadvantage where your interpretation becomes the truth. That is a dangerous place to live especially in a world where as Paul says we see in part.

So I am asking for some clarification..... 1/3 were not cast out? unpack this comment if you don't mind...

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

I think that the mythological tale of satan decieving a third of the angels is taken from Rev 12:4. "His (the dragon) tale swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth."

Wasn't it John Milton in Paradise Lost who gave this story its popularity? It could have Rabinical origins (not sure).

 

[StormyOne]

I think that the mythological tale of satan decieving a third of the angels is taken from Rev 12:4. "His (the dragon) tale swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth."

Wasn't it John Milton in Paradise Lost who gave this story its popularity? It could have Rabinical origins (not sure).

I suppose.... however other than that text, is there mentioned anywhere in the bible that 1/3 of the angels were cast out of heaven?

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

Nothing that comes to mind. I would be really interested to see the origins of the story though.

 

[sentipente]

I use the 1/3 story only as a prop not as a literal representation of fact. First, I don't believe that an omnipresent being needs angels so the entire account of the origins of sin is purely representational. Second, I don't insist that initially the number of angels must have been a multiple of three, since that is the only way 1/3 of the angels could have fallen. Too many people believe that the only way for the Bible to have any authority is for it to be an accurate history of life in the cosmos.

 

[tall73]

The later part of the text mentions angels particularly being cast down. I can't recall off hand other texts that make direct mention of it. However, unclean spirits etc. are mentioned with a fair amount of regularity in the gospels.

Satan himself is given very little treatment in the OT, with the major passages usually cited to refer to him being through literary comparison with the primary figures of the kings of Babylon and Tyre.

I am not aware of another text that references the ratio.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

 

[woobadooba]

The later part of the text mentions angels particularly being cast down. I can't recall off hand other texts that make direct mention of it. However, unclean spirits etc. are mentioned with a fair amount of regularity in the gospels.

Satan himself is given very little treatment in the OT, with the major passages usually cited to refer to him being through literary comparison with the primary figures of the kings of Babylon and Tyre.

I am not aware of another text that references the ratio.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

It's amazing what difference it makes when one just reads a little more

 

[sentipente]

It's amazing what difference it makes when one just reads a little more

Woob, the question is about the proportion of angels. There is no text that directly states what is popularly believed. If we take that number literally the Creator of the Universe would not get enough votes to get in as a Mod.

 

[StormyOne]

The later part of the text mentions angels particularly being cast down. I can't recall off hand other texts that make direct mention of it. However, unclean spirits etc. are mentioned with a fair amount of regularity in the gospels.

Satan himself is given very little treatment in the OT, with the major passages usually cited to refer to him being through literary comparison with the primary figures of the kings of Babylon and Tyre.

I am not aware of another text that references the ratio.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
Rev 12:8 And they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.

I am familiar with those texts, what I am asking is where did the the idea that 1/3 of the angels in heaven were expelled come from?

 

[woobadooba]

Woob, the question is about the proportion of angels. There is no text that directly states what is popularly believed. If we take that number literally the Creator of the Universe would not get enough votes to get in as a Mod.

Well, you know I am one of those Guys that believes what God's word says. And even though some may fail to make the connection that Tall73 disclosed, I don't have a problem seeing it as it makes perfect sense to me.

 

[sentipente]

Well, you know I am one of those Guys that believes what God's word says. And even though some may fail to make the connection that Tall73 disclosed, I don't have a problem seeing it as it makes perfect sense to me.

Many other doctrines have been created using precisely that methodology. Does that make them valid? I don't think so. Do you think heaven was shorthanded after Lucifer took one third of its workforce? Is that the kind of picture you get from such a literalistic approach to the story?

 

[StormyOne]

so the idea that there are angels were for man's benefit? I would agree with the idea that an omnipresent God would not need messengers, yet the bible writers repeatedly referred to angels.... why is that?

 

[sentipente]

Because speaking of angels does not diminish the Creator. Besides, it's easier for men to believe that someone made them sin than to understand, as was attempted in the NT, that they are actually drawn away "of their own lusts."

 

[StormyOne]

I suspect humans have no clue as to all the players involved in this cosmic drama..... likewise it probably is not nearly as black and white as some imagine it to be.....

 

[sentipente]

I suspect humans have no clue as to all the players involved in this cosmic drama..... likewise it probably is not nearly as black and white as some imagine it to be.....

It is like thinking that the family dog understands the conflict the family has with the next door neighbor.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Here is something I had gathered a while ago on the subject of 1/3 of the angels.

It is popularly thought in the SDA church, that the verse in Revelation which speaks of 1/3 of the stars being cast down is a reference to angels who rebelled with Satan.

Related to that is the concept that long ago there was rebellion in heaven and Satan and his angels were cast out. I have heard SDA sabbath school teachers deride Martin Luther because he did not believe in such
a theory. At least in SDA circles it seems to be just an assumed fact that this war was in the ancient past and that 1/3 of the angels (or nearly 1/2 as Ellen White says) rebelled and were cast out.

What follows is sections from a several Bible commentaries which offer far different perspectives.. As we begin a new Quarter of lessons we should try and see what other views are, and perhaps realize that our
particular view is not any more well validated then the alternatives. At the very least we should acknowledge there is not agreement in the Christian religions on these things.

What I would like to point out in particular in regards to the 1/3 of the stars is that they do not neccessarily represent angels. In fact there seems to be a parallel with a verse found in Daniel. In any case as you read this you will see amazing diversity of opinions.


Rev 12:4
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. (NIV)

Dan 8:10
It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. (NIV)

While many of us have been taught that the stars of Rev 12: 4 are angels, there is really little to base such an interpretation on. In fact if you were to Read Uriah Smith's Daniel and the Revelation we see that his interpretation did not arrive at such a conclusion: He says on page 546:"The third part of the stars of Heaven".--The dragon drew the third part of the stars from heaven. If the twelve stars with which the woman is crowned, here used symbolically, denote the twelve apostles, then the stars thrown down by the dragon before his attempt to destroy the man-child, or before the Christian era, may denote a portion of the
rulers of the Jewish people"....

A mere 2 pages latter on page 549 "Another symbol is here introduced, and John hastens to tell us what
this symbol represents. It is the devil and Satan. But this is not the same as the dragon of verses 3 and 4...."

That Satan is behind the power he attests as do most all commentators.

Key Excepts:

Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible CHAPTER 12
4. drew--Greek, present tense, "draweth," "drags down." His dragging down the stars with his tail (lashed back and forward in his fury) implies his persuading to apostatize, like himself, and to become earthy, those angels and also once eminent human teachers who had formerly been heavenly (compare Revelation
12:1, 1:20, Isaiah 14:12). ..

Matthew Henry Complete Commentary on the Whole Bible Chapter 12
(3.) As having ten horns, divided into ten provinces, as the Roman empire was by Augustus Caesar. (4.) As having seven crowns upon his head, which is afterwards expounded to be seven kings, ch. 17:10. (5.) As drawing with his tail a third part of the stars in heaven, and casting them down to the earth, turning the ministers and professors of the Christian religion out of their places and privileges and making them as weak and useless as he could....
John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible The Book of Revelation Chapter 12
12:4
And his tail - His falsehood and subtilty. Draweth - As a train. The third part - A very large number. Of the stars of heaven - The Christians and their teachers, who before sat in heavenly places with Christ Jesus. And casteth them to the earth - Utterly deprives them of all those heavenly blessings. This is properly a part of the description of the dragon, who was not yet himself on earth, but in heaven: consequently, this casting them down was between the beginning of the seventh trumpet and the beginning of the third woe; or between the year 847 and the year 947; at which time pestilent doctrines, particularly that of the Manichees in the east, drew abundance of people from the truth. And the dragon stood before the woman, that when she had brought forth, he might devour the child - That he might hinder the kingdom of Christ from spreading abroad, as it does under this trumpet.
Clarke's Commentary:
Verse 4. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heavens It is not unusual in Scripture, as Dr. Mitchell observes, to call the hindmost of an enemy the tail, as in Joshua 10:19: Ye shall cut off the hindmost of them, which is literally in Hebrew, µtwa µtbnzw “Ye shall cut off their tail.”
See also Deuteronomy 25:18. It is also observable that the word oura, in this verse, has been used by the Greeks in the same sense with the Hebrew word bnz already referred to. Thus oura stratou, which we would translate the rear of an army, is literally the tail of an army. See the Thesaurus of Stephens, in loc. The tail of the dragon is therefore the heathen Roman power in its seventh or last form of government, viz., the imperial power; and is not, as Dr. Mitchell supposes, to be restricted to the last heathen Roman emperors. The heathen imperial power is said to draw the third part of the stars of heaven, by which has generally been understood that the Roman empire subjected the third part of the princes and potentates of the earth. But that this is not a correct statement of the fact is evident from the testimony of ancient history. The Roman empire was always considered and called the empire of the world by ancient writers. ....By heaven is meant the most eminent or ruling part of any nation. This is evident from the very nature of the symbol, for "heaven is God's throne;" they therefore who are advanced to the supreme authority in any state are very properly said to be taken up into heaven, because they are raised to this eminence by the favor of the Lord, and are ministers of his to do his pleasure. And the calamity which fell upon Nebuchadnezzar was to instruct him in this important truth, that the heavens do rule; that is, that all monarchs possess their kingdoms by Divine appointment, and that no man is raised to power by what is usually termed the chances of war, but that "the Most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men." The meaning of heaven being thus ascertained, it cannot be difficult to comprehend the meaning of earth, this being evidently its opposite, that is, every thing in subjection to the heaven or ruling part. Stars have already been shown to denote ministers of religion; and this is more fully evident from Revelation 1:16 of this book, where the seven stars which the Son of God holds in his right hand are explained to signify the seven angels (or messengers) of the seven Churches, by whom must be meant the seven pastors or ministers of these Churches. The resemblance of ministers to stars is very striking; for as the stars give light upon the earth, so are ministers the lights of the cause they advocate; and their position in heaven, the symbol of domination, very fitly betokens the spiritual authority of priests or ministers over their flocks. Hence, as the woman, or Christian Church, has upon her head a crown of twelve stars, which signifies that she is under the guidance of the twelve apostles, who are the twelve principal lights of the Christian world, so has the dragon also his stars or ministers. The stars therefore which the dragon draws with his tail must represent the whole body of pagan priests, who were the stars or lights of the heathen world. But in what sense can it be said that the heathen Roman empire, which ruled over the whole known world, only draws a third part of the stars of heaven? The answer is: The religious world in the time of St. John was divided into three grand branches, viz., the Christian world, the Jewish world, and the heathen and pagan world: consequently, as a dragon, a fabulous animal, is an emblem of a civil power supporting a religion founded in fable; it necessarily follows that the stars or ministers of the Jews and Christians cannot be numbered among those which he draws with his tail, as they were not the advocates of his idolatry, but were ministers of a religion founded by the God of heaven, and consequently formed no part of the pagan world, though they were in subjection in secular matters to the pagan Roman empire. The tail of the dragon therefore draweth after him the whole heathen world. And did cast then to the earth. That is, reduced all the pagan priests under the Roman yoke. The words of the prophecy are very remarkable. It is said the tail of the dragon draweth, (for so surei should be translated,) but it is added, and HATH CAST then upon the earth, to show that at the time the Apocalypse was written the world was divided into the three grand religious divisions already referred to; but that the tail of the dragon, or the pagan Roman power under its last form of government, had brought the whole heathen world (which was a third part of the religious world in the apostolic age) into subjection previously to the communication of the Revelation to St. John. It is the dragon's tail that draws the third part of the stars of heaven, therefore it was during the dominion of his last form of government that Christianity was introduced into the world; for in the time of the six preceding draconic forms of government, the world was divided religiously into only two grand branches, Jews and Gentiles. That the sense in which the third part is here taken is the one intended in the prophecy is put beyond all controversy, when it is considered that this very division is made in the first and third verses, in which mention is made of the woman clothed with the sun - the Christian Church, the moon under her feet, or Jewish Church, and the dragon, or heathen power. Thus the heathen IMPERIAL government is doubly represented, first, by one of the seven draconic heads, to show that it was one of those seven heathen forms of government which have been successively at the head of the Roman state; and secondly, by the dragon's tail, because it was the last of those seven. For a justification of this method of interpretation, see on the angel's double explanation of the heads of the beast, Revelation 17:9, 10, 16.

The 1599 Geneva Study Bible Chapter 12
(4) That is the devil or Satan, see (Revelation 12:9), mighty, angry and full of wrath. (5) By this to withstand those seven churches spoken of, that is, the catholic church, and that with kingly objects and tyrannical magnificence: signified by the crowns set on his heads, as if they belonged to him by the proper right, without controversy: as also he boasted to Christ; See (Matthew 4:9; Revelation 13:1). (6) More than the horns of the Lamb, or than the churches are: so well equipped does the tyrant brag himself to be, to do all manner of wickedness.

12:4 (7) And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon (8) stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for 9 to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(7) After the description of Satan follows this action, that is, his battle with the Church partly to that which is visible, in which the wheat is mingled with the chaff, and the good fish with that which is evil: its good part, though in appearance it shined as the stars shine in heaven, he is said to thrust down out of heaven, and to pervert: for if it were possible he would pervert even the elect (Matthew 24:24) and partly to the elect members of the holy catholic church in the second part of this verse. Many therefore of triumphed on them. (8) He withstood that elect Church of the Jews which was now ready to bring forth the Christian Church and watched for her to give birth. For the whole Church, and whole body is compared to a woman: and a part of the Church to that which is brought forth, as we have noted in (Solomon 7:6). (9) Christ mystical (as they call him) that is, the whole Church, consists of the person of Christ as the head and of the body united to it by the Spirit, so is the name of Christ taken on (1 Corinthians 12:12).

The Expositor's Bible Commentary:

4 So great is the dragon’s power that his tail can even sweep away a large number of the stars and cast them down to the ground (for “a third,” see comments on 8:7). This should probably be understood simply as a figure to represent the dragon’s power and not as a reference to Satan’s victory over some of the angels. In any event, the stars cast down would, after the analogy of Daniel 8:10, 24, refer to the saints of God who were trampled by Satan and not to fallen angels. Satan has placed himself before the woman, thus expecting certain victory over the messianic child. As Lilje (in loc.) notes, it is through this figure that the church shows her awareness that Satan is always threatening the purposes of God within history. Although the attack of Herod against the children of Bethlehem and many incidents during the life of Jesus—such as the attempt of the crowd at Nazareth to throw him over the cliff (Luke 4:28-39)-must also be included, the greatest attempt to devour the child must certainly be the Crucifixion.