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One God in Trinity
- Thread starter JM
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Stupid question, not that I doubt orthodoxy but because I want to explain it better. How can the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son, but not chronologically come afterwards?
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Not sure if I understand...are you asking about the procession of the Holy Spirit, as in temporal and eternal?
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I am more concerned with work with a JW and now apparently missionaries he knows. Any quick snappy answers anyone?
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JW's are essentially modern Arians.
Two quick points that you can use scripture to flesh out:
- Jesus forgave sins and by passed the Temple which means He's God for only God can forgive sins
- Jesus refers to Himself as "I Am" in John which means He is YHWH
Arianism | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
Two quick points that you can use scripture to flesh out:
- Jesus forgave sins and by passed the Temple which means He's God for only God can forgive sins
- Jesus refers to Himself as "I Am" in John which means He is YHWH
Arianism | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
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John Gill head the orthodox Reformed Trinitarian line during a time when most Reformed folks in England were becoming Unitarian. His sermons and writings on the Trinity are a blessing.
Gill on the unity of the Godhead:
"First, It is not to be understood in the Arian sense, that there is one supreme God, and two subordinate or inferior ones. This is no other than what is the notion of the better and wiser sort of pagans, as before observed: and if revelation carries us no further than what the light of nature discovers, and that since the fall, and in its corrupt state, we gain nothing by it, with respect to the knowledge of God; nor are the expressions concerning the unity of the divine Being, which are in the Scriptures levelled so much against the notion of more supreme gods, which is a notion that could never prevail much among the heathens; and is so absurd and contradictory, that there is no danger of mens' giving into it; but against petty and inferior deities men might be tempted to embrace and worship. Besides, if two subordinate and inferior deities may be admitted, consistent with one God, why not two hundred, or two thousand? no reason can be given why the one should not stand as much excluded as the other: and again, those deities are either creators or creatures; if creators, then they are the one supreme God; for to create is peculiar to him; but if creatures, for there is no medium between the Creator and the creature, then they are not gods that made the heavens and the earth; and so come under the imprecation of the prophet, "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish, or may they perish from the earth, and from under these heavens", (Jer. 10:11) to which may be added, that such are not entitled to religious worship, which would be worshipping the creature besides and together with the Creator, and would be a breach of the first command, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Rom. 1:25; Ex. 20:1, 2)."
"The doctrine of the unity of the divine Being, is of great importance in religion; especially in the affair of worship. God, the one only God, is the object of it. This is the sense of the first and second Commands, which forbid owning any other God but one, and the worship of any creature whatever, angels or men, or any other creature, and the likeness of them; which to do is to worship the creature, besides, or along with the Creator. But this hinders not but that the Son and Spirit may have acts of worship performed to them, equally as to the Father; and for this reason, because they are, with him, the one God; hence baptism is administered equally, in the name of all Three; and prayer is jointly made unto them; both solemn acts of religious worship (see Matthew 28:19; Rev. 1:4,5). And this doctrine of the unity of the divine Being, as it fixes and settles the object of worship, so being closely attended to, it guides the mind right in the consideration of it, while worshipping, without any confusion and division in it; for let the direction, or address, be to which person it may, as each may be distinctly addressed; be it to the Father, he is considered in the act of worship, as the one God, with the Son and Spirit; if the address is to the Son, he is considered as the one God, with the Father and the Spirit; or if the address is to the Spirit, he is considered as the one God, with the Father and Son. And this doctrine also serves to fix and settle the object of our faith, hope, and love, without division and distraction of mind; which are not to be exercised on different objects, and to be divided between them; but are to centre in one object, the one only true God, Father, Son, and Spirit; whom alone we are to make our confidence, our hope, and the centre of our affections (Jer. 17:7; Ps. 73:25). As well as this doctrine carries a strong and powerful argument to promote unity, harmony, and concord among the saints; for which it is used in Ephesians 4:3-6."
Gill on the unity of the Godhead:
"First, It is not to be understood in the Arian sense, that there is one supreme God, and two subordinate or inferior ones. This is no other than what is the notion of the better and wiser sort of pagans, as before observed: and if revelation carries us no further than what the light of nature discovers, and that since the fall, and in its corrupt state, we gain nothing by it, with respect to the knowledge of God; nor are the expressions concerning the unity of the divine Being, which are in the Scriptures levelled so much against the notion of more supreme gods, which is a notion that could never prevail much among the heathens; and is so absurd and contradictory, that there is no danger of mens' giving into it; but against petty and inferior deities men might be tempted to embrace and worship. Besides, if two subordinate and inferior deities may be admitted, consistent with one God, why not two hundred, or two thousand? no reason can be given why the one should not stand as much excluded as the other: and again, those deities are either creators or creatures; if creators, then they are the one supreme God; for to create is peculiar to him; but if creatures, for there is no medium between the Creator and the creature, then they are not gods that made the heavens and the earth; and so come under the imprecation of the prophet, "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish, or may they perish from the earth, and from under these heavens", (Jer. 10:11) to which may be added, that such are not entitled to religious worship, which would be worshipping the creature besides and together with the Creator, and would be a breach of the first command, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Rom. 1:25; Ex. 20:1, 2)."
"The doctrine of the unity of the divine Being, is of great importance in religion; especially in the affair of worship. God, the one only God, is the object of it. This is the sense of the first and second Commands, which forbid owning any other God but one, and the worship of any creature whatever, angels or men, or any other creature, and the likeness of them; which to do is to worship the creature, besides, or along with the Creator. But this hinders not but that the Son and Spirit may have acts of worship performed to them, equally as to the Father; and for this reason, because they are, with him, the one God; hence baptism is administered equally, in the name of all Three; and prayer is jointly made unto them; both solemn acts of religious worship (see Matthew 28:19; Rev. 1:4,5). And this doctrine of the unity of the divine Being, as it fixes and settles the object of worship, so being closely attended to, it guides the mind right in the consideration of it, while worshipping, without any confusion and division in it; for let the direction, or address, be to which person it may, as each may be distinctly addressed; be it to the Father, he is considered in the act of worship, as the one God, with the Son and Spirit; if the address is to the Son, he is considered as the one God, with the Father and the Spirit; or if the address is to the Spirit, he is considered as the one God, with the Father and Son. And this doctrine also serves to fix and settle the object of our faith, hope, and love, without division and distraction of mind; which are not to be exercised on different objects, and to be divided between them; but are to centre in one object, the one only true God, Father, Son, and Spirit; whom alone we are to make our confidence, our hope, and the centre of our affections (Jer. 17:7; Ps. 73:25). As well as this doctrine carries a strong and powerful argument to promote unity, harmony, and concord among the saints; for which it is used in Ephesians 4:3-6."
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From the net, site linked below.
The scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible.
John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 - “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
John 5:18 - “For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.”
John 8:24 - “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (Note: In the Greek, “He” is not there.)
John 8:58 - “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'”
Exodus 3:14 - “And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'”
John 10:30-33 - “I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
John 20:28 - “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Col. 2:9 - “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”
Phil. 2:5-8 - “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Heb. 1:8 - “But of the Son He says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.”
Psalm 45:6 – “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.”
Jesus is worshipped – Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.
Matt. 4:10 - “Then Jesus said to him, ‘Begone, Satan! For it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.”‘”
Matt. 2:2 - “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”
Matt. 2:11 - “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.”
Matt. 14:33 - “And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”
Matt. 28:9 - “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.”
John 9:35-38 - “Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36He answered and said, “And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.”
Heb. 1:6 - “And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him.'”
Jesus is prayed to
Acts 7:55-60 - “But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” And having said this, he fell asleep.”
1 Cor. 1:1-2 - “Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.” (The phrase, “to call upon the name of the Lord” is a phrase used to designate prayer.)
1 Kings 18:24 - “Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God.” And all the people answered and said, “That is a good idea.”
Zech. 13:9 - “And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.'”
Rom. 10:13-14 - “for ‘whoever will call upon the name of the Lord’ will be saved.” 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?” (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase “Call upon the name of the Lord” is a quote from Joel 2:32).
Joel 2:32 - “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)
First and Last
Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
Rev. 1:17 - “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
Go on and read the article Jesus is GOD
Read more at Bible Verses Showing Jesus Is God
I've had convo's with JW's in the past and the best way to deal is to open up the word and hold them to it. Whatever verse they quote hold them in the text until you can offer an exegesis of it.
Yours in the Lord,
jm
The scriptures used here are from the New American Standard Bible.
John 1:1 - “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”
John 1:14 - “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”
John 5:18 - “For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.”
John 8:24 - “I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.” (Note: In the Greek, “He” is not there.)
John 8:58 - “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'”
Exodus 3:14 - “And God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.'”
John 10:30-33 - “I and the Father are one.” 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
John 20:28 - “Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Col. 2:9 - “For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form.”
Phil. 2:5-8 - “Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Heb. 1:8 - “But of the Son He says, “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.”
Psalm 45:6 – “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.”
Jesus is worshipped – Jesus said to worship God only, yet He receives worship.
Matt. 4:10 - “Then Jesus said to him, ‘Begone, Satan! For it is written, “You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.”‘”
Matt. 2:2 - “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him.”
Matt. 2:11 - “And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.”
Matt. 14:33 - “And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are certainly God’s Son!”
Matt. 28:9 - “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him.”
John 9:35-38 - “Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36He answered and said, “And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?” 37Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you.” 38 And he said, “Lord, I believe.” And he worshiped Him.”
Heb. 1:6 - “And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, ‘And let all the angels of God worship Him.'”
Jesus is prayed to
Acts 7:55-60 - “But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears, and they rushed upon him with one impulse. 58And when they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him, and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59And they went on stoning Stephen as he called upon the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!” 60And falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” And having said this, he fell asleep.”
1 Cor. 1:1-2 - “Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, to the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.” (The phrase, “to call upon the name of the Lord” is a phrase used to designate prayer.)
1 Kings 18:24 - “Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord, and the God who answers by fire, He is God.” And all the people answered and said, “That is a good idea.”
Zech. 13:9 - “And I will bring the third part through the fire, refine them as silver is refined, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are My people,’ and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.'”
Rom. 10:13-14 - “for ‘whoever will call upon the name of the Lord’ will be saved.” 14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard?” (Paul is speaking of calling upon Jesus. (The phrase “Call upon the name of the Lord” is a quote from Joel 2:32).
Joel 2:32 - “And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” (LORD here is YHWH, the name of God as revealed in Exodus 3:14. Therefore, this quote, dealing with God Himself is attributed to Jesus.)
First and Last
Isaiah 44:6 - “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”
Rev. 1:17 - “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”
Go on and read the article Jesus is GOD
Read more at Bible Verses Showing Jesus Is God
I've had convo's with JW's in the past and the best way to deal is to open up the word and hold them to it. Whatever verse they quote hold them in the text until you can offer an exegesis of it.
Yours in the Lord,
jm
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Interesting read:
"John Calvin follows Lombard rather than Aquinas, in making his doctrine of the trinity his doctrine of God. In Book One of the Institute his discussion of God is simply focused on the trinity. His consideration of the existence and attributes of God is, in comparison, quite meagre. However, as Muller has correctly argued, the bulk of the Reformed Orthodox follow the traditional Western line of thought seen in Aquinas." http://www.johnowen.org/media/letham_owen.pdf
"John Calvin follows Lombard rather than Aquinas, in making his doctrine of the trinity his doctrine of God. In Book One of the Institute his discussion of God is simply focused on the trinity. His consideration of the existence and attributes of God is, in comparison, quite meagre. However, as Muller has correctly argued, the bulk of the Reformed Orthodox follow the traditional Western line of thought seen in Aquinas." http://www.johnowen.org/media/letham_owen.pdf
I'm probably closer to Calvin than Aquinas. Now I have to go back and reread Owen's work!
Yours in the Lord,
jm
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