One Flesh

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

What does 'one flesh' mean to you in the 21st Century?

I see so many times where God talks about love being a 'seal', a 'bond' in marriage, yet so many times lately I've heard Christian people turn a negative view to anything binding in their life, and that independance is FAR more important in marriage, then I've ever heard in the past.

What does 'one flesh' mean to you? What does 'cleaving' mean to you? How do you integrate independance with being joined to your husband/wife?

I've seen so many Christian weddings lately where so much focus has been on space between the couple, and to not make a bond of love and be separate entities in the union.

Just wondering how on earth this can line up alongside what God says in the Bible.

Sasch

 

[Singin4Him]

What does 'one flesh' mean to you in the 21st Century?

I see so many times where God talks about love being a 'seal', a 'bond' in marriage, yet so many times lately I've heard Christian people turn a negative view to anything binding in their life, and that independance is FAR more important in marriage, then I've ever heard in the past.

What does 'one flesh' mean to you? What does 'cleaving' mean to you? How do you integrate independance with being joined to your husband/wife?

To me "one flesh" means to me as a married couple we are one in Christ just as the church is one in Christ. I see you are a little confused on "one flesh" meaning you are one person. Being one flesh does not mean you are one person but two unified in the love of God and your love for each other. My husband and I are two unique people created differently for a reason. God has different purposes for us when it comes to the desires and talents he has given us. For example, God gave me the desire for teens in trouble and becoming a counselor/pshycologist for at-risk teens. God has given my husband the desire for leading teens and becoming a youth pastor. The cool thing about this is both our different desires have commonalitys, we can use both together but also apart. We are created different so that we will fit together like a puzzle, puzzle pieces are different but similar so that they fit with each other. We also need to allow each other to be used in ways we do not have in common, for example my husband is a web designer for the Univeristy we attend and I have no interest in web design at all haha.

Now the idea of cleaving goes along with being one obviously. As we cleave to each other that does not mean we neglect or ignore our loved ones but we put each other first in all things.

I've seen so many Christian weddings lately where so much focus has been on space between the couple, and to not make a bond of love and be separate entities in the union.

Just wondering how on earth this can line up alongside what God says in the Bible.

Sasch

Wow what type of weddings have you been going to? I don't think they can be called Christian weddings if they are completely speaking against what God says about marriage. Are these possibly new age sort of weddings? That's what is sounds like to me. I don't see how they can completely disreguard what God says, yet call it a Christian wedding.

 

[InTheFlame]

Maybe those weddings are a bit of a reaction to the standard viewpoint I see in society, that you should lose yourself in each other and merge into a kind of combo entity, spending all your time together, feeling very uncomfortable if you're apart... until of course you find out that you ARE actually different people, with different desires and needs, then you divorce.

OK OK highly cynical there But seriously, it sounds as though you're half-quoting that Kahlil Gibran (sp?) poem... here's the whole thing - i went and found it because I wanted to see those words in context (I decided to add a commentary to make my understanding of it clearer) -

Then Almitra spoke again and said, "And what of Marriage, master?" And he answered saying:

You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.

You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.

Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.

But let there be spaces in your togetherness,
(you don't have to be together 100% of the time, or miss each other desperately when you're apart for a day)


And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.
(give God a chance to speak to you alone)


Love one another but make not a bond of love:
(love your spouse, but don't need him/her so badly that you'd give up on life without them)


Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.
(acknowledge that sometimes one person will be more loving, sometimes the other. If I'm drained, hubby looks after me... and vice versa)


Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
(serve each other what the other needs... eg. don't speak YOUR love language, speak your spouse's. i think the above speaks to not requiring all things to be shared, eg. taste in drinks)


Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.
(much the same as above. share your interests and joys, but don't demand participation)


Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,
(share your hopes, dreams, joys and fears, but acknowledge your own responsibility to deal with them/make them happen)


Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

Give your hearts, but not into each other's keeping.

For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.
(don't become so needy that you can't function without the other person. GOD wants your heart to be his first and foremost)


And stand together, yet not too near together:

For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
(present a united front, but don't lean on each other too much)


And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow
(a little space is often required to let a person reach their full potential. That might involve not insisting spouse always watch tv with you when they should be working on that novel, or whatever)


I think there are some very important boundaries-type concepts there - some might see it as advocating living in the same house but living completely separate lives. I don't see it that way. I see it as advocating MY idea of what a marriage should be, which is well described by what Singin4Him said -

We are created different so that we will fit together like a puzzle, puzzle pieces are different but similar so that they fit with each other. We also need to allow each other to be used in ways we do not have in common, for example my husband is a web designer for the Univeristy we attend and I have no interest in web design at all haha.

Hope that helps.

 

[Leanna]

You know, can't look right now, but I am pretty sure that all Biblical references to "one flesh" refers to sex. Like in Corinthians where it says that being joined with a prostitute is like becoming one flesh with her. Or where it says they shall leave their parents and become "one flesh." Pretty sure thats talking about sex.... but don't have a Bible on me. But if you want to talk about how to integrate two lives into one after marriage, we can discuss that instead.

 

[Leanna]

PS. Call me naive, but what poem is this? What religion is it from?

 

[InTheFlame]

An arabic poet/artist. He doesn't seem to have had any committed religious beliefs (that I know of) ... I'd class his work as 'secular' ... here's a biography.

 

[SkyeBlue8]

My opinion...
one flesh definitely refers to sex, that's a big one.

It also means, I'd say, 2 people forming one, yet still being two people, with 2 different minds. They compliment eachother...make the other stronger where they are weaker...make eachother grow in ways they would never be able to on their own...they are able to conquer trials and to pray together before God...and together they may have children (the most precious gift God can give).
When 2 people are one flesh they are entitled to these things.

But even when they are one flesh they still are two people, and that must be honored. Degrees of independence probably varies from couple to couple...some people need it and some dont. Some people may not ever want to be separate from their spouses, and others may crave that little bit of alone time every day.

A couple must honor what eachother needs, and give eachother space when it is needed.
When that happens marriage won't seem like something that is suffocating or binding, as if it is something bad.
People that say marriage is bad is totally dishonoring what marriage stands for...God's love for us, and Jesus' relationship with the Church. Disrespecting those things are serious.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Leanna,

Yeah, that's more the track I was trying to go with this thread - how to implement biblical cleaving in a marriage - attaining the balance so that it isn't so much 'me and him in this marriage' but 'us' without co-dependancy becoming a factor.

ITF - I did have a good solid look at that poem when it was used at a wedding, and my initial thoughts were 'eek - all this idea of separatism in THAT poem - how does that merge with what God says', etc etc... After taking a good strong look at the poetry, I got to what could be meant by the poem, BEYOND the wording (which I feel was very ambiguous and didn't go too much into what it was attempting to state - which is what you wrote under each line). Looking at it prima facie (on the face of it for those not versed in legalese latin ) it seemed to go completely against what God says about marriage (all that making not a bond of love, being separate in your togetherness, etc etc). I know a few couples who went to the wedding that had that poetry (and another after it) who walked away pretty shocked at the continual enforcement of being 'separate individuals' in the respective weddings. Once you looked beyond the initial highlight of separtiveness, you could see how it was meant (ie God first, not sacrificing yourself into codependency, etc), but the initial looking at the reinforcement at both weddings were a bit 'eek', which got quite a lot of people concerned.

I just get worried that so many people, both inside and outside the Christian worldview, have been so frightened by the 'codependancy' era of the 50s and 60s that they have run completely in the opposite direction and have failed to look at what God put in place for marriage.

This thread was NOT intended to put down the idea of independance in a marriage (I'm all for it), but more to question the amount of time given to things OTHER than the marriage/spouse in an attempt to flee from what may look like a dependance on someone else...

Sasch

 

[mojorising]

...knowing that we become one in goal or purpose, but we keep our individuality and respect each others space.

mojo

 

[Karen Fergusson]

hi, just a Q, how do you think a married couple can have that oneness when they are spiritually at either end of the scale??? ie saved and athiest ???

 

[LiberatedChick]

I think it's a case of finding the correct balance and this will differ from couple to couple. To me "one flesh" does refer to sex but also to some extent I see it as meaning two people working together rather than against each other. My husband and I both like some alone time every now and then or at least some time spent doing different things. However, some couples would quite happily spend every minute of the day together and some would rather spend lots of time apart doing there own thing. So I think it's a case of finding the correct balance. Finding the correct balance will most likely be a case of discussion combined with trial and error. My husband and I have talked a couple of times about how it's nice to have some time alone every now and then. Though we've never made it a regular thing in our marriage there are times when I want to go out shopping or walking etc and he doesn't so I'll go out alone. Or times (normally around Christmas) when I book time off work and he books time off too but rather than book exactly the same days we have some together and some not etc. That's just what works for us and we've found that mainly through trial and error.

Now the idea of cleaving goes along with being one obviously. As we cleave to each other that does not mean we neglect or ignore our loved ones but we put each other first in all things.

As for cleaving I agree with this though I don't think I've ever attempted to find a balance for this. I don't think I could if I tried. The majority of the time (sometimes I slip and don't) I put my husband first. My husband also does the same though he's non-Christian so I can't say whether he specifically sets out to put me first but more a case of it happening naturally due to the person he is. IMO both people need to give and both need to take. It doesn't work to have one doing all the giving and one doing all the taking....this is unbalanced. However, if you were to try to strike a balance between putting your husband first and putting yourself first again I think this could cause problems. For one thing how would you decide when to put your spouse before you...which is why I think we should put our spouse first in all things. If they also do the same then there is balance....both giving the same and both taking the same. No one doing more or less giving than the other. Where I think codependancy could become an issue is if someone is doing more than their fair share of giving and less than their fair share of taking. Giving often feels good...doing things for other people and putting them first often does. So I think that when you give and give and give and don't take anything back in return you become reliant on the giving to make you feel good. Likewise you become reliant on the person that you most commonly give to. So, in the way I see it, it's a balance between giving and taking and I'm thinking I've probably not explained it very well lol.

 

[karla]

God created us in His divine image; therefore, every human person has an intrinsic dignity apart from money, achievement or creed. But He also created us as a pair: male and female. Men are not the fullness of humanity; Women are not the fullness of humanity. Instead, God created man and woman as complementary partners. This complementary nature is physically obvious in reproduction: a man and a woman are needed to naturally have a baby. Marraige is a gift from God that enables a man and a woman to unite intimately into a whole humanity - the one-flesh union - to preserve the life of humanity. Once united, a couple should not separate.

 

[Spirarae]

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[Donnabing]

Sascha,

I can tell you what these things mean to me in my marriage, that might make it easy to understand.

Before my husband and I got married, we had separate lives, work, school, money, church. We did them together, but they were separate, we were responsible only for our selves. Also, we were not intimate, and did not have the deep connection that comes with that.

We became "one flesh" on our wedding night. Things really change after that. Our lives are one together. Our activities and finances are shared. I have my individual interests and activities as well, but my husband is an active part of them. Also, there is a closeness in our relationship because of our intimacy. There is no way to describe the emotional and really spiritual oneness we have now. It is nothing that unmarried people can experience, and it is wonderful. For us, it was an instant change in our relationship, but we are learning how to grow the "one flesh" aspect all the time. Keeping ourselves as close as possible by praying together, uniting ourselves spiritually and physically, and TALKING about everything. Marriage is beautiful.