once saved always saved

littleluna · Jun 8, 2012

is this teaching true?
a man i used to talk to said that the once saved always saved teaching is baloney

WinBySurrender · Jun 8, 2012

littleluna said:
is this teaching true?
a man i used to talk to said that the once saved always saved teaching is baloney

(Lulu, is that you?)

DeaconDean · Jun 8, 2012

This is an old article I wroote a long time agao.

I have posted it a number of times over the last 7 years. And since you asked, I'll re-post it:

DeaconDean said:
Once Saved, Always Saved
But is it Biblical?

Not very many doctrines receive as much debate as this one does. Many adhere to it, others do not. There are a few others that will provoke debates even among long time Christians. The Rapture, Millennialism (pre, post, and al) just to mane a few. As for me, I believe in the doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved. I was taught this from an early age in church. And for many years I just accepted it as true. You know, what you learn at an early age tends to stick with you through life. I started seminary school and a whole new world opened up to me. Ive got a thirst for knowledge that seems to be unquenchable. I began to research, to investigate, to seek enlightenment, regarding church doctrines and what we come to accept and believe. I have read some of the early church doctrines and early versions of Systematic Theology. I wanted to why we believe what we believe. I have studied such authors as: John Gills Body of Practical Divinity, The Complete Works of Jonathan Edwards, Theology Proper by Charles Hodge, Institutes of Christian Religion by John Calvin, Abstract of Systematic Theology by James Petigru Boyce, Manual of Theology by John L. Dagg, Introduction to Christian Doctrine by Millard Erickson, The Complete works of Arthur W. Pink. And just to balance things out, Ive even read Charles Finney's 1851 Lectures on Systematic Theology, and the Theology of Karl Barth, along with The Works of James Arminius.

You see, I felt a need to see how theology has developed from the earliest days, up to the present time. I have even studied a lot of Augustines writings. While I do not agree with all of Augustines writings, I have been able to pick bits and pieces of useful information from him, he does have his good points. I have studied some of the Confessions of Faith, and in my humble opinion, The Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 to 1649 and The Baptist Faith and Message of 1963 are the best ones. But thats neither here nor there. Before I get into this subject, I wanted to see how this idea developed. So I went and did research and some serious studying on the subject, I wanted to make sure that what I propose is right and biblical. I studied a lot of scripture while doing this, and decided on one single passage which I believe supports my position.

Before we dive in, I feel you should know at least some other views on this subject and their position:

Classic Arminianism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; The believer who loses his faith is damned.

Antinomianism: One need not persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers can lose their faith.; Those who lose their faith are saved because they once believed.; The believer who loses his faith is saved.

Classic Calvinism: One must persevere in faith to be saved.; True believers cannot lose their faith, since it is Gods gift.; Those dying without faith in Christ are condemned.; Those who lose their faith never had it to begin with.; God will preserve true believers and they will be saved.

Now lets look at the above table for just a minute. Arminians are right when they say the Bible teaches that only those who persevere will be saved, and theyre right in accusing Antinomians of easy-believism and cheap grace. Antinomians (they wouldnt use the term) are right in telling committed believers that they are secure in Christ and once saved, always saved. But where both of these views are wrong, is in assuming that a true believer can lose his faith and fall away from Christ. Faith is a gift of Godnot by works, lest any man boast. Paul was confident that, since Christ had begun a good work in believers, He would continue that work until completion (Phil. 1). John said that those who fell away were never really true Christians, since true believers don't leave the faith (1 John 2:19).

Scripture teaches that believers must persevere until the end, but also that believers will persevere until the end by God's grace. Christians might temporarily yield to Satan's temptations, even to excess, but like Peter when he denied Christ three times, God will still restore and preserve the faith of the Christian, a faith which God gave in the first place! Peter went on to do great things for the Lord! It is my opinion that the classical Calvinist model takes into account all of the biblical data.

One argument against this used by the Arminians is: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Eze. 18:24. John Gill gives this answer:

Such a sense of the words is contrary to the scope and design of the whole chapter, which not at all concerns the perseverance or apostasy of saints, and neither their salvation nor damnation; but the sole view of it is to vindicate the justice of God, from a charge of punishing the Jews, not for their own sins, but the sins of their fathers, and of injustice and inequality in his providential dealings with them, and has nothing to do with the spiritual and eternal affairs of men.1

The whole context wholly and solely regards the house of Israel, and the land of Israel, and the conduct of the people of Israel in it. In applying that to the saints in particular, which relates to the Jewish church and nation only, as distinguishable from all other people, and so stands self-condemned. Millions of instances of this kind will never enervate the doctrine of the saints perseverance; let it be proved if it can, that any one that has been made righteous by the obedience of Christ, and has been truly and inwardly sanctified by the Spirit and grace of God, ever so fell away, as everlastingly to perish; let this be proved and we have done: As for a mans own righteousness and outward acts of holiness, we allow a man may turn from them and he lost, but not from the righteousness of Christ, which is everlasting, nor from an inward principle of grace and holiness, which ever abides.

Another argument is: "one who is endued with the faith that purifies the heart, that produces a good conscience, may nevertheless so fall from God, as to perish everlastingly." In proof of which is produced, 1 Timothy 1:19, 20, holding faith and a good conscience, which some having put away, concerning faith have made shipwreck, of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander. It does not appear that these men ever had their hearts purified by faith; this should be first proved, before they are produced as instances of the apostasy of real saints; the contrary appears in their characters; they were ungodly men, and were never otherwise for any thing that is said of them; and after their profession of religion, they increased and proceeded to more ungodliness; they were vain-babblers, opposers of the doctrines of the gospel, and blasphemers of it, and were never upon the foundation that stands sure, or were known by the Lord as his, (see 1 Tim 1:20 and 2 Tim. 2:16, 19; 4:14, 15).2

Arthur W. Pink says: This terrible sin is not committed by a mere professor, for he has nothing to fall away from, save an empty name.3

Nor is it clear from the text, that they ever had a good conscience, but rather that they never had one; putting it away does not necessarily suppose they had it, but rather that they had it not, they rejecting it with dislike; as the Jews who never had the gospel are said to put it away; when they contradicted, blasphemed and rejected it, the apostle says, ye put it from you, απωθεισθε,the same word that is here used; ye rejected it, cast it from you, and would not receive it, so here; had these persons ever had a good conscience, it would rather have been said, which some having put out of them; but they never had it; when it was proposed to them, as the Christian religion proposes that a man should exercise a good conscience, they disliked it, and put it away, and would not attend to it, and chose rather to drop the faith they professed, as being contrary to their evil consciences and practices; besides, persons may have a good conscience in some sense, and as it is shews itself by an external behavior among men, which does not arise from an heart purified by faith; the apostle had such an one before he had faith in Christ, Acts23:1. though it does not seem as if these men had ever such an one.

The faith they made shipwreck of, is not the grace of faith, which it does not appear they ever had, but the doctrine of faith, the Gospel; περι τηv πιστεωv , concerning the faith, is a phrase that is never used but of the doctrine of faith, see Acts. 24:24; 1 Timothy 6:21; 2 Timothy 3:8. This is the faith they made shipwreck of, denied and destroyed, or contradicted and blasphemed, as it is explained in the next verse; and the particular doctrine of faith they made shipwreck of. Men may profess the doctrine of faith and fall from it; but this is no instance of a mans having true faith which purifies the heart, and falling from God so as to perish.

Another objection is: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Heb. 6:4-6) John Gill says:

There is nothing in the characters of these persons which shew them to be true believers;there is nothing said of their believing in Christ, or that necessarily implies it; there is nothing said that is peculiar to true believers; they are not said to be regenerated by the Spirit of God, called by the grace of God, or sanctified, or justified, or adopted, or heirs of God, and meet for the inheritance, or sealed by the Holy Ghost, or any thing of that kind.4

The following section is taken from Arthur W. Pinks Exposition of Hebrews:

Apostasy from Christ was a step more easy and natural to a Jewish than to a Gentile believer, because the way was always open and inviting them, as men, to return to those associations which once carried with them the outward sanctification of Jehovahs name, and which only the power of grace had enabled them to renounce. When heavenly realities became inoperative in their souls, the visible image was before them still, and here was the danger of their giving it the homage of their souls. If there were not an habitual exercise of their spiritual senses, the power of discernment could not remain: they would call evil good, and good evil. The ignorance which springs from spiritual neglect begins its own punishment of apathetic dullness on the once clear mind, and robs the spirit of its power to detect the wily methods of the Devil. It is in the presence of God alone that the Christian can exert his spiritual energies with effect. Abiding in Christ, maintains us in that presence. A more unhappy error cannot befall a believer than to separate, in the habit of his mind, acquired knowledge from the living Christ. Faith dies at once when separated from its object. Knowledge indeed is precious, but the knowledge of God is a progressive thing (Col. 1:10), whose end is not obtained this side of the glory (1 Cor. 8:2).5

Continued...

DeaconDean · Jun 8, 2012

A clear and growing faith, in heavenly things was needed to preserve Jewish Christians from relapse. To return to Judaism was to give up Christ, who had left their house ‘desolate’ (Matthew 23:38). It should be pointed out, however, that it is just as easy, and the attraction is just as real, for a Gentile Christian to return to that world out of which the Lord has called him, as it was for a Jewish Christian to go back again to Judaism.

In verse 4, “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened" the apostle continues the digression which he began at Hebrews 5:11. The parenthesis has two divisions: the first, Hebrews 5:11-14 is reprehensible; the second, Hebrews 6:1-20 is hortatory. In chapter 6 he exhorts the Hebrews unto two duties: to progress in the Christian course (verses 1-11); to persevere therein (verses 12-20). The first exhortation is proposed in verses 1,2 and qualified in verse 3. The motive to obedience is drawn from the danger of apostasy (verses 4-6). The opening "For" of verse 4 intimates the close connection of our present passage with that which immediately precedes. It draws a conclusion from what the apostle had been saying in Hebrews 5:11-14. It amplifies the "if" in verse 3. It points a most solemn warning against their continuance in their present sloth.

Three things claim our careful attention in coming closer to our passage: the persons here spoken of, the sin they commit, the doom pronounced upon them. In considering the persons spoken of it is of first importance to note that the apostle does not say, "us who were once enlightened", nor even "you", instead, he says "those". In sharp contrast from them, he says to the Hebrews, "Beloved, we are persuaded better things of you".

It is scarcely accurate to designate as "mere professors" those described in verses 4,5. They were a class who had enjoyed great privileges, beyond any such as now accompany the preaching of the Gospel. Those here portrayed are said to have had five advantages, which is in contrast from the six things enumerated in verses 1, 2, which things belong to man in the flesh, under Judaism. Five is the number of grace, and the blessings here mentioned pertain to the Christian dispensation. Yet were they not true Christians. This is evident from what is not said. Observe, they were not spoken of as God’s elect, as those for whom Christ died, as those who were born of the Spirit. They are not said to be justified, forgiven, accepted in the Beloved. Nor is anything said of their faith, love, or obedience. Yet these are the very things which distinguish a real child of God. First, they had been "enlightened". The Sun of righteousness had shone with healing in His wings, and, as Matthew 4:16 says, "The people which sat in darkness saw great light, and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up". Unlike the heathen, whom Christ, in the days of His flesh, visited not, those who came under the sound of His voice were wondrously and gloriously illumined.

The Hebrews had accepted the gospel of the once crucified and now glorified Redeemer, who sent down from heaven the Spirit, a sign of His exaltation, and a pledge of the future inheritance. Having thus entered into the sphere of new covenant manifestation, any one who willfully abandoned it could only relapse into that phase of Judaism which crucified the Lord Jesus. There was no other alternative for them, but either to go on to the full knowledge of the heavenly priesthood of Christ, and to the believer’s acceptance and worship through the Mediator in the sanctuary above, or fall back into the attitude, not of the godly Israelites before Pentecost, such as John the Baptist and those who waited for the promised redemption, nor even into the condition of those for whom the Savior prayed, ‘for they know not what they do’; but into a state of willful conscious enmity against Christ, and the sin of rejecting Him, and putting Him to an open shame" (Adolph Sophir)

Now I don’t believe that a true believer can fall into apostasy either. The stress is on “true believers.” And the people spoken of in Hebrews 6:4-6 were not true believers.

First, the Greek word for "enlightened" here signifies "to give light or knowledge by teaching". It is so rendered by the Septuagint in Judges 13:8, 2 Kings 12:2, 17:27. The apostle Paul uses it for "to make manifest", or "bring to light" in 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Timothy 1:10. Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not, lest "the light of the gospel should shine unto them" (2 Cor. 4:4), that is, give the knowledge of it. Thus, "enlightened" here means to be instructed in the doctrine of the gospel, so as to have a clear apprehension of it. In the parallel passage in Hebrews 10:26 the same people are said to have "received the knowledge of the truth", cf. also 2 Peter 2:20, 21. It is, however, only a natural knowledge of spiritual things, such as is acquired by outward hearing or reading; just as one may be enlightened by taking up the special study of one of the sciences. It falls far short of that spiritual enlightenment which transforms (2 Cor. 3:18). An illustration of a unregenerate person being "enlightened", as here, is found in the case of Balaam; Numbers 24:4.

Second, they had "tasted" of the heavenly gift. To "taste" is to have a personal experience of, in contrast from mere report. "Tasting does not include eating, much less digesting and turning into nourishment what is so tasted; for its nature being only thereby discerned it may be refused, yea, though we like its relish and savor, on some other consideration. The persons here described, then, are those who have to a certain degree understood and relished the revelation of mercy; like the stony-ground hearers they have received the Word with a transcient joy" (John Owen). The "tasting" is in contrast from the "eating" of John 6:50-56. Those here in view had had an acquaintance with the Gospel, as to gain such a measure of its blessedness as to greatly aggravate their sin and doom. An illustration of this is found in Matthew 13:20, 21.

Third, they were "made partakers of the Holy Spirit". First, it should be pointed out that the Greek word for "partakers" here is a different one from that used in Colossians 1:12 and 2 Peter 1:4, where real Christians are in view. The word here simply means "companions", referring to what is external rather than internal. These apostates had never been "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6), still less were their bodies His "temples" (1 Cor. 6:19). Nor do we believe this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit had, at any time, wrought within them, otherwise Philippians 1:6 would be contravened. It means that they had shared in the benefit of His supernatural operations and manifestations: "The place was shaken" (Acts 4:31) illustrates.

Fourth, "And have tasted the good Word of God". "I understand by this expression the promise of God respecting the Messiah, the sum and substance of all. It deserves notice that this promise is by way of eminence termed by Jeremiah ‘that good word’ (Jer. 33:14). To ‘taste’, then, this ‘good Word of God’, is to experience that God has been faithful to His promise. They could not say with Jeremiah, "Thy words were found and I did eat them" (Jer. 15:16). "Itis as though he said, I speak not of those who have received nourishment; but of such as have so far tasted it, as that they ought to have desired it as ‘sincere milk’ and grown thereby" (Dr. John Owen). A solemn example of one who merely "tasted" the good Word of God is found in Mark 6:20: "for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a just man and an holy, and observed him; and when he heard him, he did many things, and heard him gladly".

Fifth, "And the powers of the world to come," or "ageto come." The reference here is to the new dispensation which was to be ushered in by Israel’s Messiah according to Old Testament predictions. It corresponds with "these last days" of Hebrews 1:2, and is in contrast from the "time past" or Mosaic economy. These "powers" of the new Age are mentioned in Hebrews 2:4, to our comments on which we would refer the reader. Of these mighty "powers" these apostates had "tasted",or had an experience of. They had been personal witnesses of the miracles of Christ, and also of the wonders that followed His ascension, when such glorious manifestations of the Spirit were given. Thus they were "without excuse". Convincing and conclusive evidence had been set before them, but there had been no answering faith in their hearts. A solemn example of this is found in John 11:47, 48. The class here described are such as had had their minds enlightened, their consciences stirred, their affections moved to a considerable degree, and yet who were never brought from death unto life. Nor is it backsliding Christians who are in view. It is not simply "fall into sin",this or that sin. The greatest "sin" which a regenerated man can possibly commit is the personal denial of Christ: Peter was guilty of this, yet was he "renewed again unto repentance". It is the total renunciation of all the distinguishing truths and principles of Christianity, and this not secretly, but openly, which constitutes apostasy.
By ‘falling away’, we are plainly to understand what is commonly called apostasy. This does not consist in an occasional falling into actual sin, however gross and aggravated; nor in the renunciation of some of the principles of Christianity, even though those should be of considerable importance; but in an open, total, determined renunciation of all the constituent principles of Christianity, and a return to a false religion, such as that of unbelieving Jews or heathens, or to open infidelity and open godlessness" (Dr. J. Brown).

"If they shall fall away". "This is scarcely a fair translation. It has been said that the apostle did not here assert that such persons did or do ‘fall away’; but that if they did—a supposition which, however, could never be realized—then the consequence would be they could not be ‘renewed again unto repentance’. The words literally rendered are, ‘And have fallen away’, or, ‘yet have fallen’.

Taking the passage as a whole, it needs to be remembered that all who had professed to receive the Gospel were not born of God: the parable of the Sower shows that. Intelligence might be informed, conscience searched, natural affections stirred, and yet there be "no root" in them. All is not gold that glitters. There has always been a "mixt multitude" (Ex. 12:38) who accompany the people of God. Moreover, there is in the real Christian the old heart, which is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", and therefore is he in constant need of faithful warning. Such, God has given in every dispensation: Genesis 2:17; Leviticus 26:15, 16; Matthew 3:8; Romans 11:21; 1 Corinthians 10:12.

Continued...

DeaconDean · Jun 8, 2012

Finally, let it be said that while Scripture speaks plainly and positively of the perseverance of the saints, yet it is a perseverance of saints, not unregenerate professors. Divine preservation is not only in a safe state, but also in a holy course of disposition and conduct. We are "kept by the power of God through faith". We are kept by the Spirit working in us a spirit of entire dependency, renouncing our own wisdom and strength. The only place from which we cannot fall is one down in the dust. It is there the Lord brings His own people, weaning them from all confidence in the flesh, and giving them to experience that it is when they are weak they are strong. Such, and such only, are saved and safe forever.

Now to the passage in question.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Pelagius held a man-centered concept of salvation in which grace was unnecessary and man's heart was not affected by Adam's fall into sin. Augustine set forth the biblical teaching that Adam's sin was imputed to the race, that man did not have the moral ability to respond to Christ apart from the grace of God and, therefore, God was the initiator of salvation. Coupled with the idea that salvation was of the Lord was also the implication that God would carry out his plan and purpose in the life of each recipient of divine grace. Shortly after the time of Augustine, the Church moved away from his position and embraced a semi-pelagian concept in which man possessed an autonomous will that had the moral power to choose the gospel in and of itself. This laid the foundation for many of the Roman Catholic concepts of man contributing to his salvation through earning merit before God. Semi-Pelagianism focused on the power of man to choose the good; to make right moral decisions, and ultimately be able to choose Christ. This position denies the fact that Scripture teaches that man is dead in sin (Eph. 2:1-3; Col. 2:13); that no one is righteous, understands, or seeks for God (Rom. 3:9-12); that man is hostile to the law of God and is incapable of submitting to it (Rom. 8:7); that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him (John 6:44, 63-65); and that regeneration must precede faith (Eph. 2:1-5; John 3:1-10; John 1:12,13; 1 John 5:1). Semi-Pelagianism, in giving great power to man, also gives man the power to receive and reject salvation repeatedly. A person's salvation ultimately lies in the whims of that person's will. This is the background to the debate of whether or not a Christian can lose his salvation. The Augustinian position and later the position of the Reformers in the sixteenth century was that if a person is truly regenerate, God will protect and sustain that person so that he will persevere unto the end and be saved.

Many people who approach the Christian life in an antinomian (lawless) way and excuse their sin by saying, "It doesn't matter what I do, because I can't lose my salvation." That is a distortion, not only of grace, but also of the concept of salvation itself. Many of the arguments I have heard against the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints stem from understanding the doctrine in this way. Paul goes to great lengths in Romans 6 to demonstrate that if a person is truly in Christ, he cannot sin in order that grace might abound. Union with Christ presupposes a new heart that desires to obey God.

"For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." (Phil.1:6) In John 6:37-40, Jesus states that all who the Father gives to him will come to him and the ones who come will not be cast out. Verses 39 and 40 say, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that he has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I myself will raise him up on the last day." Jesus promises eternal life to those who believe and he immediately connects the giving of eternal life to the resurrection; those who come to him will be raised up on the last day (see also: John 5:24; 6:44). Just as Philippians 1:6 says that God will perfect the work which he began to the day of Christ Jesus, so also Jesus ties coming to him and receiving eternal life with the idea of a future resurrection. Receiving eternal life is concomitant with being raised on the last day. The two ideas cannot be separated. Eternal life is not eternal if it can be lost in the morning and regained in the evening only to be lost again at some future date; it is not eternal if it lasts only five days or five years. When Jesus promises eternal life and connects the receiving of eternal life with a future resurrection, he is teaching that the true believer is eternally saved.

This same idea is reiterated in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." Again, Jesus states that he gives his sheep eternal life and emphasizes this by the statement that no one is able to snatch them out of either his or his Father's hand. Concerning this passage, some contend that although others cannot snatch a man out of God's hand, the man himself is free to do so. However, the verse states that no one can do this. That is a universal negative which certainly includes the man himself. The passage does not qualify the "no one" by saying that the regenerate man himself may make himself unregenerate and translate himself from the kingdom of God back into the kingdom and family of the devil. Another attempt to discount this passage argues that Satan can snatch a man out of the hand of God. This passage blatantly contends that the Father is greater than all and no one can snatch them out of his hand. That certainly includes the devil and man. This passage also demonstrates that the perseverance of the saints is actually a preservation by their Savior; their coming (being drawn by the Father) and their perseverance are grounded on God and not man (see: John 6:53,63-65).

If you believe in the sovereignty of God, that He is omnipotent, all powerful, then how can you disagree with the above passage? If man can take himself out of the Father’s hand, then in effect, that makes man more powerful than God! And this is not so. God sits on high, and rules all facets of my life, my world and is the only God.

The predominant teaching of Scripture is that the believer is eternally saved. The rejection of this position means that assurance of salvation is impossible. The most anyone could say is that at a present moment in their life they are in a state of grace, but they could not express assurance toward ultimate salvation; they could not say that they knew they were going to heaven because the possibility of falling from that state of grace sometime in their life exists. Those who hold that the true Christian can lose his salvation find themselves in disharmony with a preponderance of Scriptural evidence.

1 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

2 Ibid

3 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

4 Final Perseverance, Asserted and Vindicated, John Gill

5 Arthur W. Pink, An Exposition of Hebrews, Chapter 24: Apostasy

Hope this explains some things.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Reformed Baptist 1689 · Jun 9, 2012

littleluna said:
is this teaching true?
a man i used to talk to said that the once saved always saved teaching is baloney

No, how can it be true! the very idea that God gives you free will to choose salvation then denies you free will from then on in simply does not make sense. Semi-pelagians need to embrace semi-pelagianism or else reject it rather then trying to have their cake and eat it!

WinBySurrender · Jun 9, 2012

strelok0017 · Jun 9, 2012

@OP: Yes, eternal security is true. The question is not if we can loose salvation but if God can loose His child.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

His_disciple3 · Jun 10, 2012

I believe once saved always saved to be very much bibical. but yet struggle for so many people do not, now I think that we can divide on other bibical issues, but One would think that Jesus being our AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith, would certainly put our salvation in His hands to hold, rather than our hands only to slip away. but many do not see it. Just the other night, I went to hear A man, that I thought of as a great Bible scholar, only to hear Him say that He had to get saved everyday, for he knew that he sinned everyday, Had a friend of mine say that if a man lived his entire life for the Lord, but yet with His last breath, cursed. That this man would spend eternity in hell. So I was again asking God, does sin cause me to lose my salvation, and He said there was Bible proof from scriptures that sin does not cause A child of God, blood bought, borned again Child to lose their salvation. here is the proof that he showed me. Jesus instructed the disciples how to pray " Our Father who art in Heaven" and He told them the ask daily for forgiveness of their debt/sin, or trespasses/sin, so on a daily basis God knew we would still sin after we became His children. so we know we sin after we come to the saving knowledge of salvation, but yet whom do we ask forgiveness from. "OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN" HE IS STILL OUR "FATHER" the relationship is still intact, we are always saved !!!

Publius · Jun 10, 2012

littleluna said:
is this teaching true?

Only if you believe the Bible.

To deny the Biblical doctrine of eternal security is not only to deny the truth and authority of God's Word, it is also to call Christ a liar and to accuse Him of incompetence and accuse the Holy Spirit's effectual calling to be...well, ineffective.

I've always tried to be patient with those who do not understand eternal security and, thus, deny it, thinking that it was not an essential issue. But the more I've talked to those who deny it, the more I realize that they're not just mistaken or misguided, but are promoting the heresy of works-based salvation.

Publius · Jun 10, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
<staff edit>

According to Christ, no, that is not enough to be saved.

Muslims worship a false god and do not acknolwedge Christ as God, Lord, or Savior.

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
<staff edit>

John 8:24. Now, this is the part where you say, "But He didn't say the words I think He should have said".

<staff edit>

...who happens to be a false god.

<staff edit>

Actually, in this case, I get my belief that Muslims worship a false god from your admission that your god is not Jesus.

<staff edit>

Thus demonstrating my claim that Muslims worship a false god.

<staff edit>

This verses doesn't say that Jesus is God, only that Jesus submits to the Father.

<staff edit>

Really? It's "powerful" to you? It's so powerful that you didn't even bother to read the rest of it, where it says that Jesus is God in v 34?

Hentenza · Jun 10, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
<staff edit>

Mark 1
1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Jesus is the Son of God. God is divine, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, one can only beget after its own kind, therefore, Jesus is divine.

John 3:16
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e] only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

To believe in Him is to believe in who He is. To not believe in who Jesus is is to not believe in Him, therefore, believing in the divinity of Jesus is necessary for salvation.

His_disciple3 · Jun 10, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
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according to scriptures, to be born of God or to be part Of God's family one must Believe that Jesus was the Son of God!

1 John 5:5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
KJV

WinBySurrender · Jun 10, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
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One, those verses don't prove He said He wasn't God. You ignore John 8:58, "Before Abraham was, I am." Two, did you know you can't debate in this forum, as you are not a Baptist?

His_disciple3 · Jun 10, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
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He already has it is through His only Begotten Son,

John 14:6-7
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
KJV

Hentenza · Jun 11, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
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Jesus displays two main titles in scripture, Son of God and Son of Man. The title of Son of God always refers to His divinity while the title Son of man always refers to His earthly work as a man. Jesus is both fully God and fully man, consequently, He will display both natures.

Hebrews 1:

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 [a] in these last days has spoken to us [b]in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [c] world. 3 [d]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [e] upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Jesus is an exact representation of God's nature. Exact (χαρακτὴρ- from where we get the English word for character) means an identical expression reflecting both inner and outer character.

I am in the straight path, are you?

Hentenza · Jun 11, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
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It is not just a concept brother but a divine fact. Jesus could not have accomplished all that the Father entrusted Him as a mere man. This why this revelation is of such consequence.

For example, not even Michael the Archangel dared to pronounce judgment against satan but called on the name of the Lord to do so.

Jude 1
9 But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “ The Lord rebuke you!”

And yet Jesus pronounced judgment on satan and rebuked him.

Matt. 4
10 Then Jesus *said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘ You shall worship the Lord your God, and [d]serve Him only.’”

David Pratt · Jun 11, 2012

"Once Saved, Always Saved."

Would that apply to Samson?

phoenixdem · Jun 11, 2012

David Pratt said:
"Once Saved, Always Saved."

Would that apply to Samson?

What is your point about Samson?

Reformed Baptist 1689 · Jun 11, 2012

JustAnotherAbdullah said:
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Whh is precisely why we say your God your false, he must fit into the ability of the human mind to understand, that makes him finite, rather then infinite.

The truth is Jesus is God - thye bible clearly testifies to that! Take for example John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Nothing could more clear then that. There was one who dwelt with God from the beginning, who is also divine in his nature. Hence there are two persons who have always been God, according to this verse (the Spriit is not in view here.)

Here are some more;

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

and

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Notice that Jesus is identified as both God and Saviour. Both nouns can only be identifying Jesus in context, and as any first year greek student will tell you Granville Sharpe's rules demand wree understand both nouns referring to Jesus Christ.

For the Muslim there is a belief that Jesus Christ is nothing more then a prophet, the problem with that is that the prophets did not speak upon their own authority, they always say, 'thus says the Lord' or equivelant. The Lord Jesus Christ however says 'most assuredly I say unto you.' He speaks the word of God under his own authority, he must be more then a prophet. His followers claim his authoirty in the New testement writings as they speak the word of God, just as the Old testement prophets claim the authority of God. Again therefore we see he is God.

Finally, not only does the bible say Jesus is God throughout, in many different ways, the claim that Jesus never says he is God is thoroughly incorrect, and shows an ignorence of the word of God, the Lord Jesus Christ takes upon himself the covenant name that God gave to Abraham at the burning bush, John 8:58;

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

No, my freind, the truth is, once one casts of the presumpotions of Muslim monotheism and inspiration and picks up the bible and reads it is a fair way, they can only conclude that this books identifies Jesus Christ as God. This is why your best apologists try to attack the authenticity of the bible - they now they cannot contend with the arguements of the bible, and that they will loose, sop they try to undermine the credibility of the Bible instead.

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